Deckgun - Bow vs Stern - Page 2

NEON DEON · 04-01-07, 11:11 PM

Oh heck just bribe the supply officer and mount 2 of em!

No need to have to decide

Doomgiver · 04-02-07, 07:26 AM

heck that would be fun, but on the sub upgrade screen why is there two different deck guns for both the bow and stern

AntEater · 04-02-07, 09:44 AM

There is a deck gun modification with 2 5 inchers, but it is hard to spot, as it is not named "2 guns".
It costs 2000 renown, thats how you can spot it.
You can only man one of them, though, but two are actually shooting.
But since you're upside down on the five incher, who wants to man it anyway??
Btw, the five incher was a unique weapon, some kind of sawn-off destroyer gun with a much shorter barrel.
Some earlier boats in Freemantle had guns from the old V class boats, which were regular (longer and heavier) five inchers.

DeePsix501 · 04-02-07, 09:51 AM

I wish the game would give us little paragraphs about the weapons/upgrades we put on our sub, so I could know a little more about it...

-Pv- · 04-02-07, 12:33 PM

"...I wish the game would give us little paragraphs about the weapons/upgrades we put on our sub, so I could know a little more about it..."

What, and not have to take advantage of the wealth of sub lore on this website?
You can get more WWII hsitory reading 5 pages in this forum than most of us get all our lives.

On the other hand, I got more ignorance from reading 5 pages of rants than I got in 30 years at the workplace.

Balances out. I'm both smarter and dumber. Depends on whom I believe.

Right now I'm in favor of the front mount as I only intend to use it to attack.

The one time I had it as a rear mount being chased by a DD it chewed me up pretty badly and I only inflicted minor damage on it.
-Pv-

DeePsix501 · 04-02-07, 02:09 PM

Oh, I in know way discredit this site and its vast amounts of sub lore and data. I just thought it was odd that they had information on upgrades in SH3 but didnt have it in SH4. I for one dont mind minimizing the game and looking up information on upgrades and sub data, just some people may not.

Personaly I have the deck gun on the back of the sub. I havent had to use it in a retreating action for self defense. When I do use it, its more for finnishing off a crippled ship, and even then I just simply adjust course slowly and bring us within about 1500 yards of the target and let the deck gun crew go at it. Having it on the back has in no way impaired my fighting capabilities. Often times, i'll try using the 20mm flaks i have on board to pepper smaller coastal boats, and they work too. Had I my choice, I wouldnt put a deck gun on if it would in some way increase underwater speed and just stick to my dual flaks, as I normaly dive to avoid aircraft rather than duke it out with them.

WFGood · 04-02-07, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doomgiver

heck that would be fun, but on the sub upgrade screen why is there two different deck guns for both the bow and stern

There were many different iterations of guns available for submarines as the war progressed. Some were purpose built for subs and others were modified from surface vessels.

The 3 inch 50 caliber Mk 21 (76mm) dual purpose cannon deck gun was standard issue on board many United States Navy Submarines, Destroyers and Destroyer Escorts (DE) during the early stages of World War II. By US Navy standards, it was generally considered to be a defensive weapon designed to be used against aircraft that were far away or very high up, although on a submarine it was primarily employed against enemy surface ships. Mounted on a pedestal either forward or aft of the conning tower, this weapon could fire a 13 lb high explosive projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2,700 feet per second and a maximum range of just over 16,000 yards with a ceiling of 21,500 feet. This gun could elevate to 85° and depress to 10°. Cartridges were packed four to a box, the weight of a full box being about 125 lbs with cartridges weighing approximately 32lbs each. The 3 inch 50 had a watertight tampion for the muzzle and a watertight cover for the breech with stainless steel mechanisms and bore. This weapon could be used with equally deadly effect against both surface and aerial targets.

The largest weapon carried aboard a US submarine was the 5 inch 25 caliber (MK40) cannon. Housed on a moveable mount, submarines located these weapons abaft of the cigarette deck.

This weapon was as efficient in laying down a barrage of anti-aircraft fire as it was in delivering salvos during shore or vessel bombardments. Semi-automatic and rapid firing, it allowed the crew to fire an average of 10 to 15 rounds per minute. This cannon was capable of sending a 54 pound projectile 18,000 yards and possessed a maximum aerial range of six miles.

The bit about the largest weapon is a little inaccurate, but I think it refers to regular fleet service. The Argonaut and Narwhal both had 6" guns.

Sailor Steve · 04-02-07, 05:30 PM

Here is some better information. "Better" as in Campbell's book is considered the best on the subject. Note especially the maximum range and AA ceiling.
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk10-22.htm
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-25_mk10.htm

Platapus · 04-02-07, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFGood

The 3 inch 50 caliber Mk 21 (76mm)

The largest weapon carried aboard a US submarine was the 5 inch 25 caliber (MK40) cannon. Housed on a moveable mount, submarines located these weapons abaft of the cigarette deck.

In this context what does the calibre designation mean?

I thought I read a long time ago that it was the ratio between the bore and the barrel length. But that can't be right as the 3 inch 50 cal would be over 12 feet long.

So what does it mean when the 3 inch gun had a 50 calibre designation?

WFGood · 04-02-07, 07:48 PM

Caliber. (a) The diameter of a gun's bore; (b) the nominal length of its bore, expressed in multiples of its diameter. This expresses the length of a piece in proportion to its bore; a gun described as 18 caliber's long would have a bore 18 times as long as its diameter. This term is still used today.

Both definitions are still used, although definition (a) seems to be more prevelent.

panthercules · 04-02-07, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFGood

The 3 inch 50 caliber Mk 21 (76mm)

The largest weapon carried aboard a US submarine was the 5 inch 25 caliber (MK40) cannon. Housed on a moveable mount, submarines located these weapons abaft of the cigarette deck.

In this context what does the calibre designation mean?

I thought I read a long time ago that it was the ratio between the bore and the barrel length. But that can't be right as the 3 inch 50 cal would be over 12 feet long.

So what does it mean when the 3 inch gun had a 50 calibre designation?

Based on the pictures of this particular gun (see here: http://www.valoratsea.com/350.htm ) and other such pictures, I wouldn't think it odd for this gun to be a little over 12 feet long, so I think that must be the way the "caliber" term is being used in this context - I think for small-bore weapons (pistols, rifles, machine guns, etc. of .5 inch diameter or less) it's more commonly used to refer to the bore diameter, but for naval guns/artillery pieces or other large bore weapons it seems to be uniformly used to denote the length instead.

Platapus · 04-03-07, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherculesdesignation?[/quote

Based on the pictures of this particular gun (see here: http://www.valoratsea.com/350.htm ) and other such pictures, I wouldn't think it odd for this gun to be a little over 12 feet long, so I think that must be the way the "caliber" term is being used in this context .

In looking at that site, I could imagine the barrel of the 3 inch 50 calibre gun being 12 feet long. I just imagined it to be more 6-8 feet long. But in those pictures it seems a lot longer (assuming that the gun crew was not midgets)

hmmm midget gunners sleep two to a bunk and eat half the food... this might just work :rotfl:

OddjobXL · 04-03-07, 10:19 AM

I'm going through the Barb's last patrol in "Thunder Below" and they didn't seem to be shy about using the cannon for aggressive purposes and it was mounted forward. Early on it seems they're using it for target practice on sampans and the like but during this patrol there's an episode where they surface, very stealthily, during a dawn attack on an armed trawler with a 40mm and 75mm cannon mounted along with "possible" machinegun positions.

They came up so that the sun was framing the trawler and they'd be on the dark side of things. From the description it seems standard practice was a very noisy affair but this time Fluckey explicitly told everyone to be silent as possible. When they were ready the the crew opened up on the enemy's weapon positions. The plan was the cripple it and then board to seize charts and possibly a prisoner for better regional intelligence. (Their mission was to "raise a ruckus" and distract Japanese anti-sub defenses from a coordinated wolfpack infiltration elsewhere).

Then again, Fluckey seems like a real nut. This same mission he'd taken rockets, the only ones in Hawaii, along for an experimental run at coastal bombardment of a fortified cable station (he claims this is the first time a submarine ever used rockets but thanks to GWX's fine manual it seems the Germans were using the same tactic years earlier on the Black Sea against the Russians). He also tries to "invade" an isolated Japanese seal farm/observation post in order to plant a flag on Japanese territory as there was a cameraman along. Well, seems a Japanese combined navy/army unit was there and a real firefight broke out. The sub again used AA and cannon to rip the hell out of any building with an antenna, first, and then they blew up any cannons observed. Took out several buildings and bunkers too! But the landing was called off as too risky.

The Japanese later claimed they came under bombardment from six capital ships...

Sailor Steve · 04-03-07, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Quote:

Originally Posted by pantherculesdesignation?[/quote

Based on the pictures of this particular gun (see here: http://www.valoratsea.com/350.htm ) and other such pictures, I wouldn't think it odd for this gun to be a little over 12 feet long, so I think that must be the way the "caliber" term is being used in this context .

In looking at that site, I could imagine the barrel of the 3 inch 50 calibre gun being 12 feet long. I just imagined it to be more 6-8 feet long. But in those pictures it seems a lot longer (assuming that the gun crew was not midgets)

hmmm midget gunners sleep two to a bunk and eat half the food... this might just work :rotfl:

Take another look at this one:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk10-22.htm

Gun Length oa 159.7 in (4.055 m)
Bore Length 150.3 in (3.816 m)

That's a bore length of 12 feet 6.3 inches, and an overall length of 13 feet 3.7 inches. Right on the button, it looks like to me.

Platapus · 04-03-07, 10:39 AM

[quote=Sailor SteveGun Length oa 159.7 in (4.055 m)
Bore Length 150.3 in (3.816 m)

That's a bore length of 12 feet 6.3 inches, and an overall length of 13 feet 3.7 inches. Right on the button, it looks like to me.[/quote]

That fits the bore/length ratio of 50. Thanks for clearning that up. It was bugging me for a while.

04-01-07, 11:11 PM	#16
NEON DEON Ace of the Deep Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 1,207 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 5	Oh heck just bribe the supply officer and mount 2 of em! No need to have to decide __________________ Diesel Boats Forever!

04-02-07, 09:44 AM	#18
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	There is a deck gun modification with 2 5 inchers, but it is hard to spot, as it is not named "2 guns". It costs 2000 renown, thats how you can spot it. You can only man one of them, though, but two are actually shooting. But since you're upside down on the five incher, who wants to man it anyway?? Btw, the five incher was a unique weapon, some kind of sawn-off destroyer gun with a much shorter barrel. Some earlier boats in Freemantle had guns from the old V class boats, which were regular (longer and heavier) five inchers. __________________

04-02-07, 09:51 AM	#19
DeePsix501 Navy Dude Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 173 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I wish the game would give us little paragraphs about the weapons/upgrades we put on our sub, so I could know a little more about it... __________________ In Memory of the USS Triton (SS-201) - May We Never Forget Those On Eternal Patrol

04-02-07, 02:09 PM	#21
DeePsix501 Navy Dude Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: College Station, Texas Posts: 173 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Oh, I in know way discredit this site and its vast amounts of sub lore and data. I just thought it was odd that they had information on upgrades in SH3 but didnt have it in SH4. I for one dont mind minimizing the game and looking up information on upgrades and sub data, just some people may not. Personaly I have the deck gun on the back of the sub. I havent had to use it in a retreating action for self defense. When I do use it, its more for finnishing off a crippled ship, and even then I just simply adjust course slowly and bring us within about 1500 yards of the target and let the deck gun crew go at it. Having it on the back has in no way impaired my fighting capabilities. Often times, i'll try using the 20mm flaks i have on board to pepper smaller coastal boats, and they work too. Had I my choice, I wouldnt put a deck gun on if it would in some way increase underwater speed and just stick to my dual flaks, as I normaly dive to avoid aircraft rather than duke it out with them. __________________ In Memory of the USS Triton (SS-201) - May We Never Forget Those On Eternal Patrol

04-02-07, 05:30 PM	#23
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Here is some better information. "Better" as in Campbell's book is considered the best on the subject. Note especially the maximum range and AA ceiling. http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_3-50_mk10-22.htm http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNUS_5-25_mk10.htm __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

04-02-07, 07:26 AM	#17
Doomgiver Bosun Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 65 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	heck that would be fun, but on the sub upgrade screen why is there two different deck guns for both the bow and stern

04-02-07, 12:33 PM	#20
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"...I wish the game would give us little paragraphs about the weapons/upgrades we put on our sub, so I could know a little more about it..." What, and not have to take advantage of the wealth of sub lore on this website? You can get more WWII hsitory reading 5 pages in this forum than most of us get all our lives. On the other hand, I got more ignorance from reading 5 pages of rants than I got in 30 years at the workplace. Balances out. I'm both smarter and dumber. Depends on whom I believe. Right now I'm in favor of the front mount as I only intend to use it to attack. The one time I had it as a rear mount being chased by a DD it chewed me up pretty badly and I only inflicted minor damage on it. -Pv-

04-02-07, 07:48 PM	#25
WFGood Electrician's Mate Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: high above the big blue Posts: 137 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Caliber. (a) The diameter of a gun's bore; (b) the nominal length of its bore, expressed in multiples of its diameter. This expresses the length of a piece in proportion to its bore; a gun described as 18 caliber's long would have a bore 18 times as long as its diameter. This term is still used today. Both definitions are still used, although definition (a) seems to be more prevelent. __________________

04-03-07, 10:19 AM	#28
OddjobXL Torpedoman Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 119 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'm going through the Barb's last patrol in "Thunder Below" and they didn't seem to be shy about using the cannon for aggressive purposes and it was mounted forward. Early on it seems they're using it for target practice on sampans and the like but during this patrol there's an episode where they surface, very stealthily, during a dawn attack on an armed trawler with a 40mm and 75mm cannon mounted along with "possible" machinegun positions. They came up so that the sun was framing the trawler and they'd be on the dark side of things. From the description it seems standard practice was a very noisy affair but this time Fluckey explicitly told everyone to be silent as possible. When they were ready the the crew opened up on the enemy's weapon positions. The plan was the cripple it and then board to seize charts and possibly a prisoner for better regional intelligence. (Their mission was to "raise a ruckus" and distract Japanese anti-sub defenses from a coordinated wolfpack infiltration elsewhere). Then again, Fluckey seems like a real nut. This same mission he'd taken rockets, the only ones in Hawaii, along for an experimental run at coastal bombardment of a fortified cable station (he claims this is the first time a submarine ever used rockets but thanks to GWX's fine manual it seems the Germans were using the same tactic years earlier on the Black Sea against the Russians). He also tries to "invade" an isolated Japanese seal farm/observation post in order to plant a flag on Japanese territory as there was a cameraman along. Well, seems a Japanese combined navy/army unit was there and a real firefight broke out. The sub again used AA and cannon to rip the hell out of any building with an antenna, first, and then they blew up any cannons observed. Took out several buildings and bunkers too! But the landing was called off as too risky. The Japanese later claimed they came under bombardment from six capital ships...

04-03-07, 10:39 AM	#30
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,361 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	[quote=Sailor SteveGun Length oa 159.7 in (4.055 m) Bore Length 150.3 in (3.816 m) That's a bore length of 12 feet 6.3 inches, and an overall length of 13 feet 3.7 inches. Right on the button, it looks like to me.[/quote] That fits the bore/length ratio of 50. Thanks for clearning that up. It was bugging me for a while.