America Less of a Democracy Every Day...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by fatty

I chuckled when Neal blamed the problem on "fast food" but I think there's a point there. Pardon me if this seems offensive in anyway, but look at the direction of American culture; on a given Tuesday night, about 30 million people are tuning into American Idol. That's one tenth of the population in one single hour parked in front of their TVs. A huge number. Nevermind all of the other trashy shows on that week, or those substituting scarfing down a Big Mac in the place of insightful dinner table discussion. There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.

I fully agree. America has dumbed down tremendously. That's not to say that other countries haven't just as well but America in a leadership position cannot afford to more than many others.

And freedom's enemies are laughing.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by fatty

There is no appreciation for what goes on outside the city limits unless it's got enormous cleavage or you can send a text message to it.

Wow, that got me thinking how much I would like to send a text message to some enormous cleavage!

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Wow, that got me thinking how much I would like to send a text message to some enormous cleavage!

Har har, crudely stated perhaps but I think my point got across. I agree with AL that the problem is also definitely not limited to America.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government. Everything the government does is from what the people want.

...we can abolish an abusive form of government at any time if our personal security, liberty, and freedom rights were neglected in any form. Throughout the years (and I'm talking over the past 15 or so), our government has insated laws and regulations that restrict our freedoms

The government is perfectly right to restrict your freedoms, examples including your freedom to drink and drive, your freedom to steal, and many others. What freedoms are restricted, and how, is where politics and government happen.

... has very recently stopped listening to the voters (you and me, fellow Americans) in an attempt to expose a subjected theory that the 43rd president (GWB) had illegally fired members of the supreme court, which was never the voter's intentions or of their knowledge.

Who's being fired from the Supreme Court? This is news to me. If you mean the current mess involving the fired US attorneys, get your facts right.
What does the "voters intentions or knowledge" mean in this context? From past experience, voter knowledge counts for f*ck-all, as fatty pointed out.
The ordinary voter is not nearly knowledgeable enough about big issues to make informed decisions. The United States is a republic before a democracy; you don't make the decisions, you decide who makes them for you.
Do you know enough about macroeconomics to make informed decisions on the national budget? I sure don't. Let's leave it to someone who does. What about stem cell research? Running the Heath Service? Armed forces? The same thing goes for the Supreme Court. The voters can show their preference in selecting the man who selects, the President. After that, after the vote, they're just lobbyists.
The intentions of the voters don't matter either, one of the wonderful things about democracy is that only the vote counts, not the reasons for it.

We have a supreme-court that has pushed unconstatutional laws that directly affect the lives of the voters (again, you and me). We have had our government let an overpower (the United Nations) who attempts to push many unconstatutional laws, such as the Kyoto Protocol, which the people of the United States have absolutaly no control over. We have had lawyers who pushed laws and amendments that favor one group of people and disregard the rest.

Lawyers are supposed to opush for the best interests of their clients, it's the essence of an adversarial justice system. Lobbyists are also obliged to do all they can for their bankrollers. Sadly, most policy-makers are too susceptible to intensive lobbying, for less than noble reasons.

As such, things THIS article show that senators and congressmen/women have overstepped their voter's wishes and opinions to pursue a theory pushed into the legal system by a congress that is not even half a year old.

What do mean with these wishes/opinions? What do they count for? One man, one vote. Everything after that is undue influence. I doubt the voters would prefer to see baseless politically-motivated dismissals, and lies about such dismissals, to a hard-working group of attorneys doing their job. Now, not all of that previous sentence has been proven, but whats the harm in questioning?
If wrongdoing is suspected to have been committed in law enforcement, isnt it the duty of the Congress to investigate it, no matter how old the current congress is?
If the voters find their wishes/opinions not in line with the goings-on in Washington, then rejoice, because reoresentative democracy is working.

Recently, as I have shown, the Senators and Congress have gone on a political joy ride. Let me ask you this: Have any of you ever gone to a voting station to vote on these?

Again, you don't vote on the issues, you vote on who votes on the issues. Thats the difference between democracy and representative democracy. The United States is not a pure democracy, it's a constitutional republic.

Political joy-ride? They're politicians! Thats not a loaded word here, it's their job description. Elected by the people to assist running the country in the best way they see fit. That's the theory

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

In essence, that means that the people have absolute control over thier government.

As long as "the people" retain the ability and the courage to overthrow the current government, by force. Yes. The people have absolute control.

As with so many other things in life, it is pain of death that serves as balance.

Americans have neither the courage, nor ability, to enforce absolute control. I am not entirely sure where it was lost, but I suspect in the early 30's at the height of the depression. Perhaps that is just where it started.

[Sailor Steve]

I never know where to start with threads like this. I tend to be more conservative than liberal, and to a point I even agree with ASWNut and Waste-Gate. The problem I have is when anybody on either side claims to know, absolutely, what's right and what's wrong, whether morally or with the country. Even the founders didn't claim that kind of knowledge.

Yes, the wording in the Declaration proclaims our natural right of self-government, even to the point of armed revolution; but if you know anything about the events leading up to the War of Independence, you'll know that the original patriots did everything they could to circumvent Parliament while still maintaining loyalty to the King. In effect, they wanted independent government while still remaining British, which would have made America the first Commonwealth nation. They didn't declare independence until the King himself proclaimed them to be in a state of rebellion and sent in the regular army.

In an thread a few weeks ago I said that this wasn't the first time people on one side or another have said the country is "going to hell in a handbasket". That time I was told "No, this time it really is"! Well, people thought so back then too.

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.
I am not trying to blame the Dems or the Reps. I was trying to get along the fact that from what this country started on, alot has changed, and not much for the better.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

I did not claim myself to be right, nor did I blame (intentionally) anyone else. If the links posted relate to democrats (Seriously, I can't remember), then I assume it was unintentional.

You quote the Declaration Of Independence, but do you even know what day Congress voted for Independence? Have you ever read what Thomas Jefferson wrote about his personal feelings? John Adams? James Madison? Do you know what those men really thought about the country they made? How about their individual feelings on, say, Church and State? Slavery? Have you ever read Jefferson's Summary View of the Rights of British America? Notes on the State of Virginia?

And what do half of these have to do with what I'm talking about?

You claim to "know" what's wrong, but mostly what you spout is opinion. Try an honest debate sometime. You might learn something.

So I cannot voice my opinion?

Oh, wait; you already know all the answers.

No, I don't.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

As I posted in the above, I was drunk. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

'nuff said; I understand.

So I cannot voice my opinion?

Oh, you can and should. I love debate, and I love searching all sides of an argument. As I said, I only get contentions when people state their arguments or opinions as if they were absolute fact, and anyone who disagrees is de facto wrong.

But, you gave the reason above and I apologize if I overreacted.

[1mPHUNit0]

He understand

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Yes, congress raises taxes and spends too much, and blames the president. I didn't hear any conservatives complaining when a Republican congress did the same thing and blamed Clinton.

I visit other boards. One of them is overly conservative and any time anyone says anything remotely liberal everyone shouts "Get back under your bridge, troll"! Another is so liberal the favorite game is "Let's see how our resident righties try to explain this one"! It's the same game you guys are playing: I'm right, you're wrong and I'm the only one who can save the day. The only problem is, you're "knowledge" is mostly opinion, and you are incapable of reasonable debate, only standing in front of your pulpit and preaching.

I've noticed this here as well, from both sides. I'm saying "both sides", because even though there's a Rubik's Cube of positions among posters here, arguments descend into posters assuming the worst, and reacting to the most ridiculous statements, instead of proper argument and discussion.(example, the general reaction to gnirtS's comments about intelligence in the military)
I'm quite guilty of this myself.
*sigh*

Sailor Steve, big thumbs up