Found Historical Innaucuracy

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by tater

I looked at the Midway single mission, and it was pretty pathetic. They could at least have used the CVs they actually have that were there. Also, the ships are all on top of each other instead of the 7 KILOMETERS apart the IJN maintained as a standard.

Yeesh.

7KM apart...u mean 700metres apart.

I have been creating my own Midway Mission based on a book I ma reading titled MIDWAY (Hugh Bicheno).
It shows the Cruising formation of the Jap Carrier task force and actual paths.

Jap fleet headed towards Midway , until it was first attacked by Aircraft. It the did a kinda of large figure of 8 then resumed course until US Carrier were spotted. Then it headed NE to intercept them. About an hour later 3 of the 4 Carriers were sunk. 4th carrier continued on diverging course with US Fleet until it to was sunk.

Wil try and scan images and post them soon. Cruising order is really interesting.
4 carriers in box formation with destroyer in beween each carrier.

I played the mission with the actual Cruising formation and found i couldn't sink a carrier. I did install harder escorts Mod though but even then i couldn't get a clear shot at target.

[Linavitch]

Doesn't this make the campaign 'more dynamic'?

Seems a bit odd to play 100% realism but then wait, forewarned, for a task force.


Shame you can't start 1st dec '41 and sink the carriers before Pearl Harbour. Might get a nobel peace prize for averting a war!

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by Linavitch

Doesn't this make the campaign 'more dynamic'?

Seems a bit odd to play 100% realism but then wait, forewarned, for a task force.


Shame you can't start 1st dec '41 and sink the carriers before Pearl Harbour. Might get a nobel peace prize for averting a war!

Doesn't make it odd. in fact it makes it more realistic. US Subs were aware taht Jap Task forces were on way to Midway. US broke Purple codes before the war even began. U Subs were picketed in an arc at Midway across the likely approach route of Jap Task force.
Singlemission would just mimic the initial dispositions of combat units. Then its up to you to see how you perform in heat of battle.
Remember you should not expect to fight battles exactly as they were fought in WW2. Rather you are placing yourself in command of US Sub and seeing if you damage enemy etc.

[tater]

Originally Posted by sandbag69

7KM apart...u mean 700metres apart.

NO. IJN doctrine had the CVs 7000m apart. There was a "plane guard" DD behind a few hundred meters to pick up downed pilots. So you had a 7000 box of 4 CVs, each with a DD behind. Off to either side of the lead CVs another 15,000m was a CA on each side. Leading the center of the box by 7000m was another 2 CAs, each was 15,000m off the center of the CV box. Leading that in the center a couple thousand meters was a CA with a DD close behind. This changed for different battles, but the basics were the same in terms of spacing, even if for a given engagement they were 5000m instead of 7000m, or in line instead of a box.

A quick and dirty diagram of the standard box formation circa late 1941:

The spacign between the CVs (squares) is 7000m. The rest is to scale except for the plane guard DDs behind the CVs which are too far astern.


Think about it this way. The ships, operating at flank speed for a CV, needed to be able to turn independantly of each other during air attack to avoid bombs without even having to think about collision. So look at a formation. If any major combatant made a radical turn, is a collision possible within a short time period? If the answer is "yes" they are too close together.

[tater]

Note that additional DD units if present would likely be all along the far outside as pickets/ASW. IJN doctrine for CAP over the fleet had the zero pilots looking for AAA at the fringes, and then heading for the activity since they lacked radar guidance (or radios, most times).

tater

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by tater

NO. IJN doctrine had the CVs 7000m apart. There was a "plane guard" DD behind a few hundred meters to pick up downed pilots. So you had a 7000 box of 4 CVs, each with a DD behind. Off to either side of the lead CVs another 15,000m was a CA on each side. Leading the center of the box by 7000m was another 2 CAs, each was 15,000m off the center of the CV box. Leading that in the center a couple thousand meters was a CA with a DD close behind. This changed for different battles, but the basics were the same in terms of spacing, even if for a given engagement they were 5000m instead of 7000m, or in line instead of a box.

A quick and dirty diagram of the standard box formation circa late 1941:

The spacign between the CVs (squares) is 7000m. The rest is to scale except for the plane guard DDs behind the CVs which are too far astern.


Think about it this way. The ships, operating at flank speed for a CV, needed to be able to turn independantly of each other during air attack to avoid bombs without even having to think about collision. So look at a formation. If any major combatant made a radical turn, is a collision possible within a short time period? If the answer is "yes" they are too close together.

Where did u get ur info for 7Km apart?

Seems crazy to me. No destroyers could screen a task force if each Carrier was 7KM apart.

[tater]

SUNBURST: The Rise of Japanese Naval Airpower, 1909 - 1941

It was IJN doctrine for the Kido Butai. They were more concerned about air attack than subs I think. Regardless, if attacked by a sub, they'd want to be able to maneuver. Imagine the total chaos at night if ships had to avoid a torpedo attack witha 700m spacing. They'd lose half the fleet from collsions.


The USN had similar issues with CV task forces early in the war. One faction wanted each CV to operate independantly over the horizon from the next. The idea was to make it so a single snooper or strike force would only see ONE CV at a time. the trade off was difficulty screening and maintaining CAP in addition to increased chances that one group might be detected. It was done in a mixed way at Midway with Enterprise and Hornet over the horizon from poor Yorktown

[tater]

OK, I just checked Shattered Sword (which if you were to have just one book about Midway, this would be it, the rest are totally inaccurate regarding the japanese forces and motivations for their decisions). The Kido Butai at Midway was unsurprisingly*** in standard 7km box. There were more escorts hovering around the fringes.

Moments before the fatal air attacks hit, they had maneuvered from previous attack into a loose line abreast about 7km apart.

If yuo see a CV group in a game with ships close by, and they are not refueling the CV, they are too close, lol. Most games should add a zero tot he spacing between ships (in meters).

tater

***EDIT: unsurprisingly since it was their doctrine to operate that way. Edited to make it clear I'm not being snippy. BTW, if you get a midway mission dialed in with the right spacings, I'd love to have a crack at it!

[XanderF]

Speaking of 'historical inaccuracy', the US flag you see every time you run the game on the loading screen is driving me nuts! I mean, seriously, did they not even bother to CHECK?

[tater]

LOL, Il-2 had 50 star flags sometimes. Drove me nuts. Still does.

[tater]

I made a Q&D mission of the IJN midway forces in a box. Was gettig tired so I forgot to add a few DDs that were also with them. About 6, actually that were a screening force. Tonight I'll throw 6 around the fringes.. Interestingly the CV's train of oilers had a single DD as escort.

Anyway, I approached the formation on the surface, then dived as soon as I had a radar contact. I was harried by planes of all 3 CV types. That's really goofy (though on my game right now zeros have no bombs since they shouldn't, so they mostly just fly around). Was an interesting sight through the periscope. I set the mission so I'd find them easily---I was due south of the center of the formation. I first saw the CL and it's consort, a DD. Put a fish in the CL and it went down by the bow but didn't sink. The sea was a little rough which possibly helped me avoid the DD which didn't try very hard to find me. KNowing the formation I put the rudder over and angled a little to one side since the CL was roughly 3500 yards from each line of CVs. Got a quartering bow shot on a Hiryu. 2 fish and she rolled over and sank (I have the "realistic sinking" on, too. I swear the CVs need serious work, they are a joke to sink, at least Hiryu). Her plane guard DD drove around pinging. I styed on that side and let Shokaku (stand in for Akagi and Kaga) have it with 2 fish. First was a head shot which damaged the bow. Second was an aft tube shot from the port side and she listed a little. Took 2 more to sink her, one might have detonated prematurely. Felt better than the Hiryu though. Tried to make it to the other column, but there was no way that was gonna happen submerged.

I think with 6 DDs screening ahead, assuming they were reasonably aggressive, getting in to the formation would be tricky. OTOH, Nautilus did it in RL.

tater

[TheSatyr]

Biggest misconception I see on the forums about the battle of Midway was the Nautilus' role in the battle. By the time she got into position to do anything, the carrier fleet had already been hit hard and most of the surviving ships had already withdrawn.

Since she was just up against 3 burning carriers and a few ships that were there to stand by the stricken carriers it was easy for her to get a firing position on the Kaga. She got 3 hits on the Kaga,all were duds and as a matter of fact one of the torps actually broke in two after striking the Kaga. The rear portion of the torp actually floated and a few japanese sailors used it as a liferaft till they were picked up.

The Nautilus did try to get into position to attack one of Nagumo's 2 BB escorts earlier in the day,but was forced to go deep by aircraft and DDs.

The Cpt of the Nautilus not only mis-identified the carrier he was shooting at,he also thought the DDs were CLs. From what I understand,they were still using the pre-refit versions of the Akagi and Kaga in the US Navy recognition manual...which is why he thought the Kaga was the Soryu.

[sandbag69]

7Km Apart?

[TheSatyr]

7KM apart would mean that the ships would be too far apart to support each other. 2000yds maybe,but I don't buy the 7KM thing at all.

I'll have to read "Midway:The Battle that Doomed Japan" By Fuchida and Okumiya again and see if they give the ranges. What they did say was that the carriers were in a tight box formation up until the time the attacks by a/c from Midway started...then the Hiryu and Soryu got a little seperated from the Akagi and Kaga.

And if you've seen the Japanese footage of the attack on Pearl Harbor you'd see that the carriers were rather close to each other.

[sandbag69]

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

7KM apart would mean that the ships would be too far apart to support each other. 2000yds maybe,but I don't buy the 7KM thing at all.

I'll have to read "Midway:The Battle that Doomed Japan" By Fuchida and Okumiya again and see if they give the ranges. What they did say was that the carriers were in a tight box formation up until the time the attacks by a/c from Midway started...then the Hiryu and Soryu got a little seperated from the Akagi and Kaga.

And if you've seen the Japanese footage of the attack on Pearl Harbor you'd see that the carriers were rather close to each other.

I agree totally. Midway by Hugh Bichero displays a diagram of actual Jap Cruising formation at 0700 on 4th June 1942. Shows Tight box of Carriers with probably no more than 700m to 1.2Km spacing. I will try and scan it when next at home and post it.