Revisionist history being taught in Europe?

Originally Posted by Skybird

I know that quote and used it myself in the past. However, concerning the context of this topic of how to weight war contributions, it is more or less useless. The Russians lost 24 million people, soldiers and civilians alike, and God knows how many their cities laid in ruins afterwards. How to calculate that with material deliveries from the US and Britain? that's why I said the US were one war faction - amongst others only. And if any of these allies could have won the war all by himself, the Alliae maybe never would have formed up, for there would have been no need for it.

You feel its useless because it doesn't support your argument not because it is wrong. The German people started the war and moved across Europe almost un-hindered until the US got involved, whether thru Lend-Lease or actual combat.
Either way if it were not for the US, Germany would be governed under French or Soviet authority. You should be very grateful for our assistance during WWII.

As J.F. Kennedy said ; 'I am a jelly doughnut'.

[Skybird]

You seem to not wanting to get what I said. How to calculate losses in lifes against material contributions in the main, was my example question? Russia alone would not have made it. America alone would not have made it. Britain alone would not have made it. Lend-Lease, suggested French raise and living under Soviet dominance has nothing to do with all this thread.

You may be surprised, but I find it unreasonable to expect other people to be ETERNALLY thankful for something, no matter what (especially when oneself has not contributed to that past cause). If you expect them to be that, you effectively turn them into your slaves. My thanks goes to those soldiers who today are old and actively fought in WWII and helped to overcome tyranny. My sympathy goes to those soldiers from all countries, Axis and Allies as well, as long as they were victim of circumstance, not active perpetrator of war crimes or active supporters of dictators. My respect goes to all those soldiers from all countries who despite themselves being thrown into war managed to keep their humanity or find it again after the war, and resisted to fall for blind hate for that part of mankind being labelled "the enemy".

All you others who have been born after that, and talk about your fathers or grandfathers only - I owe you nothing concerning WWII. For you had nothing to do with WWII. Maybe the word "WE did this and that for you" is a bit inappropriate, for that reason.

Too many suffered dearly - just for living in the wrong time, and the wrong place.

Lend-Lease, suggested French raise and living under Soviet dominance has nothing to do with all this thread.

Sure it does because that is the ultimate end to your country. With limited resources, Germany could not have triumphed. The victors would have been either France/Britain or the Soviet Union, with the French demanding some if not ultimate control over German territory. Don't forget the heavy tyranny subjected on the French by the Germans.
The Soviets with their (24 million dead) at German hands, would have demanded the other half of the territory. Ask those coming from the former 'East Germany" what that was like.

You may be surprised, but I find it unreasonable to expect other people to be ETERNALLY thankful for something, no matter what. If you expect them to be that, you effectvely turn them into your slaves.

I think you should be eternally thankful that a nation that believes in freedom and self determination, the United States, was in a position to help you in the face of certain slavery under a French or Soviet regime. I'm not asking for tribute and I'm certain that no US citizen would. That would make you a slave. A bit of appreciation as to where you are as opposed to where you could be.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I think you should be eternally thankful that a nation that believes in freedom and self determination, the United States, was in a position to help you in the face of certain slavery under a French or Soviet regime.

Wishing for something is one thing - actually getting it is something different. We refuse to be your eternal vasalls.
That's my good-bye in this thread.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Wishing for something is one thing - actually getting it is something different.
That's my good-bye in this thread.

The rise of German Nationalism? Look out Europe it is coming! The Germans will loose again.

[Penelope_Grey]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

However, Germany had the power to take on Russia and the British at the same time. Only when the Americans entered the war did things turn.

That is not strictly true SUBMAN, the tide began to turn as early as late 1941 when Rommel was beginning to lose in Africa, to the British I might add . Of course, the battle of Stalingrad and the onset of the Russian Winter, that was what stopped the Armies of the Reich dead in their tracks.

Though Lend-Lease cannot be ignored for its usefulness and assistance not to mention American finance. And Kudos where its due the invasion of German controlled territory and Germany itself.

Though, America can pat herself on the back all she wants, fact remains, if Japan had not have attacked Pearl Harbour, America might have been quite happy to remain neutral and watch Europe and Asia tear itself apart slugging it out to the finish.

Not that I would blame them for doing that. But I think where a lot of this "revisionist" idea is coming from is that America for decades has churned out a variety of films showing themselves to be the hero of the hour and the one that singlehandedly saved the world from the evil of the Reich, oh and Britain and France and the other allies whoever they are lent a hand too. Take U-571 for example, the most recent one, according to that the US Navy got an enigma box before the Royal Navy did.

I think its all to easy to look back and say oh America, without them we'd have been stuffed, end of. The devil is in the detail, maybe this is all being read wrong and perhaps history is focussing on our accomplishments in the war and what the European powers did to fight the Nazis and the successes we made. Thats not to say that the contributions of the USA are overlooked, we know full well you singlehandedly stuffed the Japanese and assisted us at the same time in the final battles with the Reich, and with lend lease and money etc. And yeah, I think most of us know in Europe without America things could have been a LOT more ugly than they were.

To my mind, if you can pat yourselves on the back for what you succeeded in doing in the war, why can't we do the same for our successes in the war? A long time has been spent looking at what Uncle Sam did and being grateful, maybe, people want to know what we did.

That's what I think anyway.

You are a very thoughtful young lady, Penelope_Grey.
Britain certainly deserves its place in history for fighting the German hord.
The US 'peace/isolation' movement was very strong at the outset of the 'European' war. Charles Lindberg (first solo cross Atlantic flight) was a spokesman for letting Europe fight its own war. Much like today, the opposision wanted to let those fighting for freedom languish.

I have no problem what so ever giving the British, Canadians, Australians even the French due credit for their efforts. Very galant they were.

Galantry, however, does not win wars, or peace, undenialable force and uncommon foresight does.

[fatty]

No big deal, revisionist history is nothing new. There is a passage IRC in The Rape of Nanking about the modern day Japanese and the chapters in their history books downplaying the massacres. I was visiting the Wright Brothers memorial at Kill Devil Hill, NC one summer. I remember standing at a display about the Me-262. A young child, presumably American, asked his mother when World War II started, and she replied "1941."

Things like this have always been contorted, twisted, and shaped in all manners of ways. I find it best not to quibble too much about who saved whose bacon. It was good versus evil, and good won, not the U.S., not the S.U., etc...

[Penelope_Grey]

Well thankyou , though personally, I feel debate like this is useless because anything to the contrary of what happened is pure conjecture. You can say, without USA Europe would not have beat the Nazis, and I could say, well, yes we could have. And we'd go round and round in circles. History is a lot like Science, if you stick to the facts and interperet them as objectively as you can what you get is as close to accuracy as it can be without being there youself.

Personally I see it from the point of view we know what America did and how invaluable their assitance was but its nice to see what we accomplished before the American forces joined us. There is nothing wrong with that, much like there is nothing wrong with you knowing and learning about what you did to beat the Japanese.

My comment to the thread starter is simply this. Just because Europe is examining what Europe did to fight and help beat the Nazis, does not mean that Europe is denying that simple of all facts, America fought with us, both financially and then physically. What is most important to remember above all else, the Nazis were beaten and got rid of.

[TteFAboB]

Don't judge Europe by its gamers or its youth (of mind). The time you spend playing a game is a time you don't spend reading a book. These opinions aren't worth 2c.

If you want to judge the entire continent you'll need more than anecdotes. I'd say: compare SHIII sales with SHIV sales in Europe. And if somebody knows how to calculate this: compare the piracying of SHIII with that of SHIV. Compare reviews and scores.

See you in a few months then, when I get this data on my hands.

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You seem to not wanting to get what I said. How to calculate losses in lifes against material contributions in the main, was my example question? Russia alone would not have made it. America alone would not have made it. Britain alone would not have made it. Lend-Lease, suggested French raise and living under Soviet dominance has nothing to do with all this thread.

You may be surprised, but I find it unreasonable to expect other people to be ETERNALLY thankful for something, no matter what (especially when oneself has not contributed to that past cause). If you expect them to be that, you effectively turn them into your slaves. My thanks goes to those soldiers who today are old and actively fought in WWII and helped to overcome tyranny. My sympathy goes to those soldiers from all countries, Axis and Allies as well, as long as they were victim of circumstance, not active perpetrator of war crimes or active supporters of dictators. My respect goes to all those soldiers from all countries who despite themselves being thrown into war managed to keep their humanity or find it again after the war, and resisted to fall for blind hate for that part of mankind being labelled "the enemy".

All you others who have been born after that, and talk about your fathers or grandfathers only - I owe you nothing concerning WWII. For you had nothing to do with WWII. Maybe the word "WE did this and that for you" is a bit inappropriate, for that reason.

Too many suffered dearly - just for living in the wrong time, and the wrong place.

I often find lucidity in your posts but In the case of your closer here
I feel they were speaking in the Public first person denoting We the people
of our nations in descency and good spirit offered help to your nations
now here I speak of the peoples or folk of nations not governments or
buisness interests. America won world war 2 for herself and over her
enemies and allies. good for her the world now has an economic focal
point which for all her flaws can wield a calming influence over those
peoples who deal in power and politics around the world not the folk
of a nation. it may not seem like it but all the world won WW2
America Britain Russia France Gemany Japan Italy China Brasil Canada.

we toss back and forth and measure ourselves against each other
and test. but in truth as historians here at SS we should be aware
that we are all of us better off than our parents or our parents parents.

MM

[Iceman]

Indeed how can contributions be compared in such a conflict...some gave all...but not all gave any.The true test is when need is there how it is met...It is so difficult to forsee how things are going to play out in a given situation and how a country should react...I mean we all know it is not a perfect world...we have starvation and greed still,pollution ALL Totally controllable by "WE" humans yet...we continue as in the first days when cain slew his brother able....we are animals who's only hope lies in the mercy of the creator.WE learn nothing from history.Like a dog that returns to his vomit.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Very True!

Hitler knew US would enter the war. Hitler wanted to set the date. Japanese beat him to it. US could not stay neutral. Hitler would have looked at like aiding the enemy. The US was for a tidy sum of money. Besides, the uboats starting sinking US vessels and US warships. Kind of hard for Hitler to hide that. It was only a matter of time. Japan set the time.

In a nutshell.....HOLLYWOOD booha! It is all about money. No one wants to pay to see their boys fail. U-571 was pure rubbish! The only two movies about the British I know is Battle of Britian and Bridge over the river Kwai. Everything else is Hollywood imagination and twisting of the truth for the gain of dollars. Furthermore, the Brits had an enigma box from a German weathership before the capture of the enigma off a uboat.

I do believe without the US helping the war would have gone on for years. But, as luck would have it, we became Allies and fought side by side for a common good. The best part is the US and Britian have stayed Allies As far as being grateful to the US. Not so much. Maybe grateful for the young men and women who gave up their youth to fight for another in their own country. Be grateful for the people not the act itself.

[CCIP]

I'd point to the other side of it - shouldn't we all be finally happy that things like the Eastern Front are getting their due attention? I've been pretty shocked with some (non-military-enthusiast) lack of knowledge about the Soviet role in the war, and many other campaigns.

I don't know about the Soviets winning alone - but what I can tell you is that any historian that thrives on "what-ifs" is NOT a historian but a quack. That is not how you get your facts and teach history.

As for the Soviet "fighting because Stalin said so" - ridiculous. Considering the absolute ruthlessness of the German occupation, which everyone knew about, I don't think it's any surprise that the Soviets fought the way they did. Use of suicide tactics was rather widespread - orders might force soldiers to go out and fight, but only a personal and fanatical belief in your cause will get you to blow yourself up, or fly your plane into the enemy, or something along those lines.
Likewise, it should be kept in mind that there is a very unfortunate Russian trait which predates the Soviet era by centuries - the disregard for human lives in war efforts. It wasn't Stalin who invented it - far from.

Anyway, as for 'who won the war' - well of course everyone won the war. I don't know what war exists in someone's fantasies, but the WWII that happened COULD NOT have been won without the British; COULD NOT have been won without the Soviets; COULD NOT have been won without the US; COULD NOT have been won without everyone else - nor without Hitler's lovely mistakes.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

That is not strictly true SUBMAN, the tide began to turn as early as late 1941 when Rommel was beginning to lose in Africa, to the British I might add . Of course, the battle of Stalingrad and the onset of the Russian Winter, that was what stopped the Armies of the Reich dead in their tracks.

I don't agree. I would call it - some successes. The Germans were still completely capable of mounting offensives and even still did when the US entered into Africa. It could have turned back at the British at any point up until that point.

Though Lend-Lease cannot be ignored for its usefulness and assistance not to mention American finance. And Kudos where its due the invasion of German controlled territory and Germany itself.

I never said that the UK wasn't a part of it - and they were an important part of it. I doubt this would have happened though if the US couldn't build 10 tanks to 1 German tank and then deploy them!

Though, America can pat herself on the back all she wants, fact remains, if Japan had not have attacked Pearl Harbour, America might have been quite happy to remain neutral and watch Europe and Asia tear itself apart slugging it out to the finish.

Are you kidding? I hope so. It was well known at the time as well as well known now that we were looking for an excuse to come to the aid of our British brothers. Germany wanted to wait but Japan knew that the US would enter at some point whether they attacked or not, and to stall the US in the Pacific, decided to strike first.

Not that I would blame them for doing that. But I think where a lot of this "revisionist" idea is coming from is that America for decades has churned out a variety of films showing themselves to be the hero of the hour and the one that singlehandedly saved the world from the evil of the Reich, oh and Britain and France and the other allies whoever they are lent a hand too. Take U-571 for example, the most recent one, according to that the US Navy got an enigma box before the Royal Navy did.

That movie was terrible. I hope you aren't serious about this. I don't think anyone in America took it seriously either. It was Hollywood cr*p. I've never been disappointed as much as that after walking out of the theatre, nor did I see anyone else thinking they got their moneys worth. The British had the first enigma machine as I know it. But if you know anything about Enigma machines, this only works for so long as new rev's come out and are distributed. They need to capture throughout the war. The US got one off the US coast somewhere as well.

I think its all to easy to look back and say oh America, without them we'd have been stuffed, end of. The devil is in the detail, maybe this is all being read wrong and perhaps history is focussing on our accomplishments in the war and what the European powers did to fight the Nazis and the successes we made. Thats not to say that the contributions of the USA are overlooked, we know full well you singlehandedly stuffed the Japanese and assisted us at the same time in the final battles with the Reich, and with lend lease and money etc. And yeah, I think most of us know in Europe without America things could have been a LOT more ugly than they were.

Please don't say 'final' battles - that is complete rubbish as you UK'rs like to say. I think you would have never defeated Germany without the US help. You would have ended in a stalemate.

To my mind, if you can pat yourselves on the back for what you succeeded in doing in the war, why can't we do the same for our successes in the war? A long time has been spent looking at what Uncle Sam did and being grateful, maybe, people want to know what we did.

That's what I think anyway.

I don't think a single person could ay that the British did nothing in the war. The proper question is, could America have defeated the Germans without their help? The answer is no. Could they have defeated them without the help of the Soviets? The answer is no. Technically, the US could have, but in actuallity, it would have been long and bloody unless the atomic bomb was used. The long and bloody part is the very reason the US could not take on Germany and win - it has to do with democracy. In a democracy, the people cannot and will not wage war for over a certain number of years. The same thing is happening today in Iraq. The same thing is also happening to the British in Iraq. It is an impossibility. The people tire of the war and pullout out. The only time this is not a factor is when you have no choice due to invasion. This is the down side of any democracy.

WWII was won in the west because both the British and the Americans worked together. Without either, Germany would probably still be controlled by the Third Reich. I think the Soviets would have continued on longer if the West gave up, but doubt they would have defeated Hitler either. Only the combination of all three saved the day.

One more thing - The atomic bomb was given the go ahead for Nagasaki and Horoshima simply because the US gov didn't think the American people had the stomach to finish the job. They were probably right.

Just my 2 cents.

-S