How can we not rewrite history?

simsurfer · 02-25-07, 08:38 PM

Ive been thinking about this for a bit, how in SHIV can we not rewrite history if the ships we sink do not respawn? Take for example the Japanese Battleship Yamoto. If for example we manage to find her and sink her prior to 1944 how would she have participated in the battle of Leyte Gulf and Samar, during which she first fired her main guns in anger.

This is just one ship though, how about aircraft carriers or other types of warship.

Has this ever been explained, or do these types of ships spawn only when they were in actual battle on specified dates as history dictates?

Torplexed · 02-25-07, 08:58 PM

The thing is who's gonna come up with the complicated formulae to determine the outcome of Phillipine Sea or Leyte Gulf or any future Japanese naval operations without the Yamato? Or the Coral Sea battle if you get lucky and sink the Shokaku early on? Would there even be a Coral Sea battle at that point? Sincerely, I doubt if the developers have put anymore thought into it other than these events proceed without that particular ship. Without some sort of vast Pacific War sub-program running the whole conflict in the background and your input on it I don't see how it could be simulated.

CCIP · 02-25-07, 09:07 PM

Well I'd simply qualify that SHIII/IV engine has always had a tactical AI but no strategic one. Without a strategic one I don't think there's any sense in attempting to simulate historical alterations; and a strategic AI would have to essentially be a wargame running under a simulation. Last time a game did that was Falcon 4.0, which was released nearly 9 years ago; it was an ambitious and difficult project that came with bugs which took years to fix. I don't have much faith that a sequel on an "accellerated development schedule" could even begin to attempt something like that.

Torplexed · 02-25-07, 09:12 PM

Another complication would be that such a program to be realistic would have to be tracking what the other sixty odd US submarines on patrol are doing, plus all the Allied carrier fleets, bomber groups, etc. It would also have to decide which targets disappear because of accidents and fate. (The Japanese battleship Mutsu blew up at anchor in 1943 due to an internal explosion.)

Subnuts · 02-25-07, 09:17 PM

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

Torplexed · 02-25-07, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

Gary Grisby came up with a sequel to that game in 2004 called War in the Pacific. It has every ship down to the PT boat level. Plus every fighter group, bomber group, division and brigade. A great game but the AI is overwhelmed in playing it. Even between two human players the one day turns means the game takes months to play. It would probably require a program of this complexity running behind the scenes to account for your impact and everyone's elses on the war. A link to the game if any are interested....

http://www.matrixgames.com/games/game.asp?gid=294

Fat Bhoy Tim · 02-26-07, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts

Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.

God I remember that. I'm amazed anyone else does.

Crosseye76 · 02-25-07, 09:09 PM

It does bring up in interesting point though. Since in SHIV we can see battles if we are in the right place and time (I think anyway) what will we see if ships don't respawn ?

If we manage to sink the Akagi and Kaga on our first foray into Empire waters, and later on we manage to sink Hiryu and Soryu (Because with 1942 vintage MK-14's that's SO likely to happen..........

), who would show up at Midway. What would we see there in June of 1942? It will be interesting to find out.

02-25-07, 08:38 PM	#1
simsurfer Watch Officer Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 342 Downloads: 54 Uploads: 0	How can we not rewrite history? Ive been thinking about this for a bit, how in SHIV can we not rewrite history if the ships we sink do not respawn? Take for example the Japanese Battleship Yamoto. If for example we manage to find her and sink her prior to 1944 how would she have participated in the battle of Leyte Gulf and Samar, during which she first fired her main guns in anger. This is just one ship though, how about aircraft carriers or other types of warship. Has this ever been explained, or do these types of ships spawn only when they were in actual battle on specified dates as history dictates? __________________

02-25-07, 08:58 PM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	The thing is who's gonna come up with the complicated formulae to determine the outcome of Phillipine Sea or Leyte Gulf or any future Japanese naval operations without the Yamato? Or the Coral Sea battle if you get lucky and sink the Shokaku early on? Would there even be a Coral Sea battle at that point? Sincerely, I doubt if the developers have put anymore thought into it other than these events proceed without that particular ship. Without some sort of vast Pacific War sub-program running the whole conflict in the background and your input on it I don't see how it could be simulated. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

02-25-07, 09:07 PM	#3
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Well I'd simply qualify that SHIII/IV engine has always had a tactical AI but no strategic one. Without a strategic one I don't think there's any sense in attempting to simulate historical alterations; and a strategic AI would have to essentially be a wargame running under a simulation. Last time a game did that was Falcon 4.0, which was released nearly 9 years ago; it was an ambitious and difficult project that came with bugs which took years to fix. I don't have much faith that a sequel on an "accellerated development schedule" could even begin to attempt something like that. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

02-25-07, 09:12 PM	#4
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	Another complication would be that such a program to be realistic would have to be tracking what the other sixty odd US submarines on patrol are doing, plus all the Allied carrier fleets, bomber groups, etc. It would also have to decide which targets disappear because of accidents and fate. (The Japanese battleship Mutsu blew up at anchor in 1943 due to an internal explosion.) __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

02-25-07, 09:09 PM	#8
Crosseye76 Lieutenant Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 258 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It does bring up in interesting point though. Since in SHIV we can see battles if we are in the right place and time (I think anyway) what will we see if ships don't respawn ? If we manage to sink the Akagi and Kaga on our first foray into Empire waters, and later on we manage to sink Hiryu and Soryu (Because with 1942 vintage MK-14's that's SO likely to happen.......... ), who would show up at Midway. What would we see there in June of 1942? It will be interesting to find out. __________________ There are only two kinds of ships. Submarines and Targets.

02-25-07, 09:17 PM	#5
Subnuts The Old Man Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,658 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	Remember that Pacific War strategy game that came out back in the early 90s? The game's scale was huge, but installed it only took up a few megabytes. It would be interesting if SHIV incorporated a strategic AI like that game, with major naval battles taking place and subs attacking convoys "over the horizon." That way we wouldn't be fighting the same war over and over again. Unfortunately, I don't think that'll be happening.