Iron Coffins - is the AI too easy??

[Finback]

Originally Posted by Heibges

I have to say that after reading the Uboat Commanders Handbook, Uboat Commander by Peter Cremer, Uboat Commander by Prien, and 10 Years and 11 Days, that I think the AI in SH3 is very realistic.

These are good books. I really enjoy Uboat Commander by Peter Cremer (good choice to post that one Heibges). It is a great mix of personal experience and Uboat technology vs Allied ASW tech and tactics. I really like the part where Cremer talks about deep dives (paraphrasing): "...tested for 150 meters. In fact these limits would be pushed and some boats would go deeper until the frame members began to crack." Only desperation would push submariners to such extremes...

And I agree that everyone should have a copy of Iron Coffins. While not completely accurate historically (as far as ships sunk and convoy actions they were involved in) it is still one of the Greatest personal accounts I've read.

I believe GWX addresses many of the issues that AI was too easy. The only wish on my list here is that when escorts lose contact they would go into a ladder search pattern or line-abreast searches when multiple escorts are present. One of the greatest challenges for escorts was maintaining contact with a sub. With all the dc's they drop in-game, they wouldn't be able to use Any sonar effectively because the water is disturbed for minutes after a dc run is made. Attack runs under ideal conditions typically happened no faster that 20 minutes apart from each other. Creeping attack and Buttercup attacks would also be...interesting.

That said I can see from a corporate view-point why they weren't included. Not everyone would hang with a simulation (game) if they would creep along for 20 minutes, flank to avoid dc's, creep along for 40 minutes only to be found again and after 8 hours of this be obliterated by a creeping attack you didn't hear coming. Would have been a nice option though for masochists like me .

Cheers!!!

[scalelokt]

I think the AI is very good in GWX, I wouldnt change a thing. In the books it may seem like they had it harder, but I'll bet GWX does a good job with the AI. One thing to remember is that the real world situation would be more difficult, but for reasons that a game could never emulate. For example: missing home, sick of eating same old food, crew members being scared and panicked, CO2 levels rising, and of course the decisions you make mean your life. The point being that in a real life situation your decisions would be affected by all of those things, where as in the comfort of your home you are making all your decisions calmly without all this stress and the worst you risk is a "u-boat destroyed" screen instead of a watery grave. That gives you an enormous advantage over how it was for those in really doing this. From the viewpoint of how the enemy responds to your presence, I think in ways GWX is more difficult. I've said it once and I'll say it again, GWX is the most incredible mod (or collection of mods) ever made, I am just blown away by how real this game is, in all respects. SH3 sure is addicting isnt it?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by scalelokt

I think the AI is very good in GWX, I wouldnt change a thing. In the books it may seem like they had it harder, but I'll bet GWX does a good job with the AI. One thing to remember is that the real world situation would be more difficult, but for reasons that a game could never emulate. For example: missing home, sick of eating same old food, crew members being scared and panicked, CO2 levels rising, and of course the decisions you make mean your life. The point being that in a real life situation your decisions would be affected by all of those things, where as in the comfort of your home you are making all your decisions calmly without all this stress and the worst you risk is a "u-boat destroyed" screen instead of a watery grave. That gives you an enormous advantage over how it was for those in really doing this. From the viewpoint of how the enemy responds to your presence, I think in ways GWX is more difficult. I've said it once and I'll say it again, GWX is the most incredible mod (or collection of mods) ever made, I am just blown away by how real this game is, in all respects. SH3 sure is addicting isnt it?

Like I also stated. ..no FIDO to contend with or sonobouy. To me the AI should be hard to overcome these two short comings alone. Some think the AI DD to good. I say no, they make it a challenge. We need more now....I say FIDO...if it can worked out. Nothing like a FIDO tail grabbin' your arse in the Atlantic

[cobalt]

Originally Posted by Heibges

Also, Herbert Werner comes across as kind of a crybaby. He does something a military officer should never do, and that is blame something that goes wrong on someone else.

He blames his XO for the boat getting sunk by hitting a mine in harbor.
He blames his LI for not being able to keep proper trim.
He blames his Rosen and Doenitz for having to go to sea, despite extreme danger from Allied Radar.

are you serious?

his xo took the boat out without permission and got a of couple men killed.

his LI was obviously a new recruit and was not trained properly enough to keep the
boat trimmed.

Wouldnt you be pissed too if all your friends were dying?

a cry baby

wow

wowww

[Mooncatt]

whats a FIDO???

[Morts]

its a homing torpedo
you dont want that hunting you

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Mooncatt

whats a FIDO???

As Morts stated. These were dropped by Allied aircraft. Just after the boat submerged the pilots would drop these. It would home in on the screws. Darn effective. So tough DD in GWX are good in my view because we do have it somewhat easy out there while in game.

Sonobouy also dropped. Could hear the uboat all day. Planes come and go for relief. The uboat boys were hating life when the CVE attack groups showed up in the neighborhood.

[Mooncatt]

a homing fish eh, how the hell do you get away from that? use harsh language?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Mooncatt

a homing fish eh, how the hell do you get away from that? use harsh language?

You don't Sir. The Kaleun only hoped the FIDO would not pick them up. Sometime they did not, often they did. ASW in the later years was VERY effective. I just read a book Hunter/Killers about the CVE. The aircraft were very good and very aggressive. Radar/sonar/sonobouy/FIDO/DC. They meant business and business was good.

[Mooncatt]

well if anything comes out with that in it we`re screwed then lol

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Mooncatt

well if anything comes out with that in it we`re screwed then lol

There was attempts to make it work but not looking to good.

[Mooncatt]

yeah i can imagine it wouldnt be easy to add something like that.

[immortal44]

I get the distinct impression that we really have it easy in the game.

The allies knowing your position thanks to a status report would certainly change this (I'm not sure if it is in the game?).

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by immortal44

I get the distinct impression that we really have it easy in the game.

The allies knowing your position thanks to a status report would certainly change this (I'm not sure if it is in the game?).

I believe this is modelled into the game. The book "Hunter/Killers US Escort Carriers in the Battle of the Atlantic" By William T Y'Blood. I have read quite a few of the u-boat books and I wanted to see what the Allies were up to. These guys had a lot of tools at their disposal to hunt and kill the boats. They were damn good at it. The CVE were made out of oil tanker hulls. Plenty of room for plane/ammo/fuel. In 1943, 27 boats sunk or captured. 1944, 22 boats sunk or captured. 1945 6 boats sunk or captured. Having enigma codes was also part of the arsenal. It is a good book and I recommend it highly. So in essence, if we had these bad boys after us as well, it would be quite ugly. Fortune for us GWX DD are good and hopefully overcome what is missing. I think it does it quite well.

[High Voltage]

Originally Posted by cobalt

are you serious?

his xo took the boat out without permission and got a of couple men killed.

his LI was obviously a new recruit and was not trained properly enough to keep the
boat trimmed.

Wouldnt you be pissed too if all your friends were dying?

a cry baby

wow

wowww

I agree with you 100% Cobalt.
Weber's XO bent the boat and killed 2 men, His LI had no business being on any boat without being qualified to execute this most basic and necessary of manoeuvres, and staying alive was hard enough already without being sent out on suicidal missions by officers too far removed to properly grasp/care about what was going on.

Imagine you've survived long enough for all of your friends to die, you realize at a certain point that the war is lost, you keep getting sent out on aimless patrols, guided by dangerous instructions, unable to properly defend yourself, and you can't even count on your crew to properly trim the boat.

On a related note, Peter "Ali" Cremer's U-333 is an equally fascinating read, and a must for any aspiring Kaleun.