So this is why canada cant afford a navy

[Kapitan]

What builds alot of economies is millatery power as it offers the investor of your country security hence why alot of people invest in british european and also american markets not forgetting the japanese.

Millatery can also crash the one thing that makes the world go round money, if the USA invaded a small country it could wipe billions off the ftse100 and 200.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

It is interesting that we think of ourselves as leaders at the UN but I notice that Members of the permanent council have SSBN's

True, but some of these countries (i.e. Russia and China) are having a hard time looking after their own domestic issues. I would say their priorities are ill-placed by having a standing nuclear deterrent force when they are presently racked with corruption and poverty.

I think we do an okay job of making our way in the international scene. Canada has been and still is a pillar in the securing and developing of Afghanistan. I had an opportunity last year to hear former head of the Strategic Advisory Team Col. Mike Capstick speak on the mission there. Our impact in Afghanistan is more impressive than many realize.

As far as SSNs, maybe we should be forming some exploratory committees to research the nuclear option should the global situation suddenly shift and an urgent need emerges for SSNs.

Originally Posted by Kapitan

What builds alot of economies is millatery power as it offers the investor of your country security hence why alot of people invest in british european and also american markets not forgetting the japanese.

Ummm, this maybe was true 100 years ago, but liberal democracies do not really get invaded anymore. Luxembourg has far and away the highest GDP per capita in the world, yet has a standing army of less than 1,000. This is also a country which has been occupied twice in the past century.

Edit: Also, if for some reason which I cannot imagine Canada ends up in a conflict with the U.S., we can always just turn off their electricity

[Mush Martin]

sorry boys I was down with network issues Im back.
and happy to say that there are ways other than nukes
but of those boycott or bribe are our current fav's

we are able to send small contingents overseas
but by way of example our internaitonal influence
wouldnt back argentina out of the falklands
or many more recent examples.

albeit I recognize the need for defence and for self control on
military spending I also recognize a need for a seperate
offensive force capability

as Sun Tzu observed in peacetime a wise man keeps his
sword by his side. How long do you think theyll give us
to gear up before the next big one is over.

and I defy anybody on this forum to say it cant happen
the world is full of small brushfires now.
It can happen, and almost inevitably will someday
although not to soon I hope.

How thin are you going to spread those guys in defense of the worlds second largest nation geographically after all for the size of the place
70,000 is almost a credible size for an insurgency. but a national defence?
standing forces have traditionally been limited in peacetime to what is necessary to complete sovreignty patrols and keep our claim to all this.

the reason we would need a seperate offensive capability is that if you have to drain your defenses to make an attack youve given the game to
any able enemy.

Oh but canada doesnt have any enemies.
yeah right!

all nations are self serving in the event. the whole idea is to make
it advantageous enough to make being part of a cooperative world community the best choice for them in there own opinion.

I like the british example in aden.
it was won there with vetrinarians and doctors and agricultural consultants
and well drilling, at which point the leadership was having a terrible time
convincing there people of British malfesance
MM
Ok im done now!

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Canada is not a super power nor a regional power not anything, its millatery could realy only be used for defence it hasnt the numbers to launch an attack on say the USA or indeed Britian, because it has no nukes canada has to rely on protection from those who do like japan does.

Canada doesnt need nukes at the moment its not a major player in iternational politics nor a major power that influencies anything on the sea any way so the diesel boats should be around for a fair while.

Not unlike Russia!

JCC

[Kapitan]

Russia can only be classified as a dormant super power it has some influence but not alot, it maintains a force that can be used in attack and defence, it has the 2nd largest navy 2nd largest airforce and about the 8th largest army making it still a pretty big contender.

Note if you said to a russian the americans are invading chances are the army would quadruple over night

[Mush Martin]

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

[ReallyDedPoet]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

MM

[fatty]

But Mush Martin, Sun Tzu also said:

To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence.

Both you and Kapitan neglect the economic clout that Canada has. I used a smiling emoticon when I mentioned turning off the electricity but it's really no joke; as was said in the terror-free oil threat, the U.S. imports the most oil from Canada.

Do you believe that the only way for Canada to be a serious world player is for the CF to double in size? Security advisors south of the border are quite vocally pushing for decreased reliance on foreign oil. Iran quite astutely knows the power of this:

Originally Posted by Gulf Daily News

"Given Iran's authority over the Strait of Hormuz, the passageway to more than 40 per cent of the world's energy, we have become so strong that the world's economic and energy security are in the hands of Iran," deputy Basij commander General Majid Mir Ahmadi was quoted as saying by the semi-official Fars news agency.

"We can exert pressure on the US and British economies as much as we ourselves are put under pressure," he said.

"US allies, especially those who host US military sites or facilitate American strategies against us, are exposed to our threat," Mir Ahmadi added.

About a week after this article is published, USS John C. Stennis departs from its homeport to form a strike group eventually bound for the Persian Gulf. Now then, I believe you mentioned something about not measuring international influence with oil?

Trade is a monumental trump card for Canada. We should be funding our forces enough that they don't need to cancel exercises or retire perfectly good aircraft, but the doubling of the CF is really unnecessary.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by Mush Martin

do you see how kapitan measures the influence of the nation it is based on the issues described and equates a succesfull investment in military industrial complex with international influence. he doesnt measure by oil or iron ore or platinum like many including common public perception.

in short people will only listen when you can back it up

and wether or not canada does or doesnt need nukes
Canada does need to beef up
our self image amounts to the worst kind of delusion
MM

Hm... very interesting points.
From a Non-Canadian perspective it has always been my perception that Cananda simply was not interested in military conflicts. There's something to be said for not bothering with 3rd world squabbles on the other side of the world...

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

Russia can only be classified as a dormant super power it has some influence but not alot, it maintains a force that can be used in attack and defence, it has the 2nd largest navy 2nd largest airforce and about the 8th largest army making it still a pretty big contender.

Note if you said to a russian the americans are invading chances are the army would quadruple over night

Just out of curiousity Kapitan. Would you say there is still a good amount of anti-American sentiment in Russia? I can tell you first hand that in America, Russia is no longer considered an enemy at all... a turbulent country with a semi-tenuous political environment yes... but an enemy no.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Just out of curiousity Kapitan. Would you say there is still a good amount of anti-American sentiment in Russia? I can tell you first hand that in America, Russia is no longer considered an enemy at all... a turbulent country with a semi-tenuous political environment yes... but an enemy no.

I can tell you even more exactly (being a Russian).

The attitude of Russians was always very different from what an American might normally think. Actually, my perception is that many Americans DO see Russia as an enemy still...

Anyway - the vast overwhelming majority of Russians have never hated America as an enemy, and probably a large proportion actually always liked Americans. On the other hand, in a very typical fashion for that culture, they had and have a very suspicious attitude towards America, which can sometimes border on paranoia. Which is why many Russians are offended by the attitude Americans have towards it and its political environment now - sure they're not happy with things as they are in the country, but nothing gets them going more than America pointing a finger at it. They (and I too) believe that noone really has the right to do that.

I think one thing that Americans should be aware of is that there is such a thing as a 'Russian Way' (which Russians themselves can't quite articulate, either), and they take serious offense at anyone they perceive as meddling in their affairs (both at the government and popular level). Superpower or not, Russia is a state with very well-defined and broad-spanning interests. As soon as these interests are brought into question, Russians get miffed.

Again, I stress: most Russians like the average American. But most Russians have no interest in becoming the average American. They will insist on seeing the world their own way and don't take kindly to it being questioned by outsiders.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by CCIP

The attitude of Russians was always very different from what an American might normally think. Actually, my perception is that many Americans DO see Russia as an enemy still...

Interesting perspective, thanks. Really though, being an American born and raised, I can assure you that American's don't see Russia as an enemy...However, I have to admit that we do look down our noses at Russia abit. Not because of any cold war residual, but because American's perception of Russia in its current state is that its racked with deeply intrenched political corruption... not something to think of as a enemy or threat, but the American knee-jerk reaction to just about any country perceived to be in political corruption is to look down our noses at them.

My gut says that the level of political coruption that is perceived (through network and cable news services, etc) is probably exaggerated... quite frankly, I'm not sure if the average American really knows what the heck is going on over there... just rumor and speculation for the most part.

[CCIP]

I should clarify so I don't come off as being unfriendly towards America in any way... what I mean is that there ARE quite a few Americans who think Russians are angry (whereas in reality they're very weary) and could potentially 'go berserk' and do something that would really hurt America or American interest. The chances of that are, and nearly always were close to zero. The other problem is that Americans like to project themselves onto Russia, and I think it's a tragic mistake to even begin to compare the two countries - of course Russia will end up looking bad. But Russia had a terrible, violent history - especially in the last 100 years - which America mercifully avoided. Much of the modern Russian character is shaped by the weariness of this violence and instability. Not that it does them any good.

Otherwise, I think the image of Russia not exaggarated, just mis-represented sometimes. Noone should be under any illusion of things there being good or bad - they're bad, but not in the ways one might always think. The key thing is that Russia as it is right now is a surprisingly stable state with a population that is surprisingly badly-off. I'd personally be far more optimistic if Russia were more unstable internally - but unfortunately the population is by and large so poor (besides a tiny and incredibly rich elite) and so politically passive that we can't even begin talking about democracy and other positive things there changing. It's a stable and not-really-good status quo. Most Russians will proudly announce that "we can survive in our country", and that's about as far as it goes for most of them (amazingly, it's a big improvement over the previous decade). Rather sad, really.

[LoBlo]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I should clarify so I don't come off as being unfriendly towards America in any way... what I mean is that there ARE quite a few Americans who think Russians are angry (whereas in reality they're very weary) and could potentially 'go berserk' and do something that would really hurt America or American interest.

Where do you get that perception from? No one I know believes that.

EDIT: Really. Have you really met American's that have expressed that?

[Kapitan]

It depends on the individual upbringing, CCIP sounds like his mother accepted anyone regardless which is a good thing. (not being offencive)

My stepfather is a old soviet school, he was brought up in his early years with Stalin and Kreschev and so he doesnt like the Americans and that is passed on in me a tiny bit.