GWX AI or the "Spiral of death" experience - Page 2

mr chris · 01-23-07, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oRGy

Quote:

so yet again : THE SENSORS IN GWX ARE NOT UBER!!!!!!!!
Stop blaming it, and IMPROVE UR TACTICS!

Reminder: this post is not aimed against the topic creater, but against the person I quoted (oRGy) and the rest of those UBER WHINERS

I do not consider myself a whiner, but I have no trouble in saying that you are ignorant.

I created the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod, if you care to recall, and spent many hours researching and going over the AI sensors and adjusting them to historically correct values.

After doing this, users noted that the DD AI was 'nerfed' in comparison to stock. This was due to limitations of the AI and foolish design decisions by the SH3 devs, so clearly historically correct values have to be changed to get a realistic outcome.

However, GWX goes too far in the other direction in my opinion.

Subs having to dive to 180m+ and go to silent running to have a chance to evade a DD in 1939 is ludicrous. First of all, not every boat in '39 even had ASDIC, but assuming they did, the early models were extemely ineffective and didn't scan below 100m, never mind the fact that all crews in the RN at this time were completely untrained for ASW warfare!

A players periscope being detected by an armed TUG boat, in 1940 at 2800 meters while they player was in a type II @ 2 knots is ludicrous. As a former naval watch officer posted:

Quote:

I stood watch as a contact coordinator on 2 classes of submarines, I can assure you that at 28 hunderd meters the only way to spot a WWII attack scope that was raised for 6 seconds is to be looking exactly where it is when its raised.

The initial detection was by sonar, sorry that capability is highly questionable in my experience. I can assure that passively, that detection would be 97% impossible, especially with the surface duct working the way it would in a real ocean enviroment. I have seen modern passive sonar miss a surface ship that was 1000 yards away!

I can almost guarantee that that capability is far above and beyond what was capable in 1940, even under good conditions. Not saying a fluke detection isnt possible, hell I'll tell ya I heard and seen some strange stuff out there, but the norm is not that good.

Certainly, some of the complaints by people just involve laziness. My position is that the AI should match the historical model, not some modders of idea of "hard" in order to separate "the men from the boys". As another poster said:

Quote:

Of the 9 U-boats sunk in 1939, two were sunk by mines and one by a British sub. The other six were destroyed by depth charges from 2 or 3 ASW vessels (never by just one alone.) Also in at least 2 cases, premature torpedo detonation or broaching the surface gave the U-boat's approximate position away.)

Of the 24 U-boats sunk in 1940, two were rammed by friendly or neutral ships, two were sunk by aircraft, two more by British subs, and 7 definitely and probably one more were lost to mines. Two were sunk by combinations of 4 destroyers and a Sunderland, and the remaining 8 by ASW vessels, mostly multiple ASW vessels.

If GWX results follow this pattern, then it is realistic and I have no complaints. If a player can engage in historical tactics of U-boat commanders and achieve the same results as them, then I have no complaints. If this is not the case, then GWX is unrealistic and accusing others of being "UBER WHINERS" is immature and unhelpful.

Ciao

Well if you dont like what you see in GWX with the sensors don't play the mod.
No one is forcing you to play a mod that you dont like. If your mod the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod is so great why are you playing GWX?
Dont go round ripping into other peoples hard work with such immature and unhelpful words as UBER. i doubt you would have liked people to have pulled your work though the mud.

gasparweb · 01-23-07, 12:53 PM

Thank to everybody!

I'll try a sucide mission now: torpedos & collisons + some Deck Gun
Not much hope, but...

On the sucesive patrols, i will never took the "channel of death" path anymore.

Maybe oRGy is right about the unrealistic early days in GWX.
Im reading "The great war on the sea" by W. Nimitz (YES, Nimitz) and the reference about U-Boats vs DD in 1939-1940 seems to agree with oRGy.

However i will keep trying with GWX.

HunterICX · 01-23-07, 12:54 PM

Using the Historical Valeus into SH3 doesnt give you the HISTORICAL outcome

it doesnt, why? simple you cannot model AI stupidity or unawareness.

and I 180 Meters in 1939, Dont make me laugh.
I have been detected a couple of times in 1939, I never dove deeper then 60 - 80 meters.

and 1 time I had 5 DDs above me in the *ENGLISH* channel
they KNEW I was there...they Pinged me, and guess what
the Accuracy is so off that they dropped DCs 30 - 50 Meters around me not even doing the slightest damage. 30 meters was my MAX or else I slammed into the bottom...I had to manourve for a couple of hours...and I had some luck , it turned dark and I could creep away. but that was clear weather.

and ofcourse 1939 is easy. but read the title of the game ''!!!!!SILENT!!!!! hunter 3'' dont take the enemy on easy.

btw...maybe you should install SH3 again and try GWX before yourself before you blame the sensors beeing to uber. they are NOT.

Stock Sh3 was ARCADE style, and now it gets a bit too realistic and BOOHOOO I get myself sunk too much. I cant duke it out on the surface anymore. I cant attack convoy in my rampage way.

maybe you should act as a REAL uboat commander before complaing because in RL they could Cry that the Enemy sensors where to uber...why not...they where busy trying to be as silent as posible.....or they where sleeping with the fishes.

If they where uber...why is my U-45 still alive ? and I made some errors and paid for it...but I had to change my way of playing the game. this game is about using ur brains! and not brutal force and sink the biggest ships.

AVGWarhawk · 01-23-07, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasparweb

Thank to everybody!

I'll try a sucide mission now: torpedos & collisons + some Deck Gun
Not much hope, but...

On the sucesive patrols, i will never took the "channel of death" path anymore.

Maybe oRGy is right about the unrealistic early days in GWX.
Im reading "The great war on the sea" by W. Nimitz (YES, Nimitz) and the reference about U-Boats vs DD in 1939-1940 seems to agree with oRGy.

However i will keep trying with GWX.

Maybe so but for what canvas that the developes sent out and what GWX team can do with the canvas is pretty good and as close as realistic as it can be given the original canvas given.

Capt.Crackerjack · 01-23-07, 02:20 PM

:hmm: I am a huge GWX fan. However, after extensive testing, in my humble opinion, I must reluctantly agree that the new DD sensor levels in GWX are just a tad (10-12%) too high, i.e. precise. I also believe that simply making it extremely difficult is not a guaranteed path of making it realistic.

Therefore, I am hoping and requesting the DD sensors may be slightly reduced for the January 31 update.

AVGWarhawk · 01-23-07, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capt.Crackerjack

:hmm: I am a huge GWX fan. However, after extensive testing, in my humble opinion, I must reluctantly agree that the new DD sensor levels in GWX are just a tad (10-12%) too high, i.e. precise. I also believe that simply making it extremely difficult is not a guaranteed path of making it realistic.

Therefore, I am hoping and requesting the DD sensors may be slightly reduced for the January 31 update.

I think they are good as they are. Perhaps a little to aggressive in early war but one has to remember the British had good experience in WWI with uboats and hunting them. We are dealing with numbers here to reproduce human sight and hearing. This will limit what can be created. I would prefer the more challenging DD as GWX has it now than the easy DD because it would become boring after a while. I enjoy the challenge with the DD as they are because the slightest wrong mistake can ruin your whole day. When you get in and get done what you plan, it is just that much more rewarding.

gasparweb · 01-23-07, 02:59 PM

Due my particpation in this thread, i must admit that this is a very predecible discussion.

In my opinion, oRGY (who seems to abandon this thread) dont show a lack of respect, but this never was the objective of the thread.

Cleaning up the mess they are two considerations:

1) The *English* Channel is almost a worst-case scenario: shalow, very patroled and narrow.
2) The AI of DD (and other warships) in the early days (1939 to Feb 1940) is maybe a little too precise. However this is not a downside of GWX, since it has a superb pdf Manual with a own definition of REALISM.

To GWX users:
¿Have you escape DD's (2~5) attacks in shallow waters in GOOD weather? (even at night) .Is a simple cuestion, i just wont know yours experiencies.
Which Grids near England are most "traveled by merchants" in 1939? the East Side? Experiencies are welcome.

I repeat my regards to ALL the sailors.

Jimbuna · 01-23-07, 03:12 PM

This debate will never have an all party amicable conclusion where everybody rides off into the sunset whistling merrily

Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the merits or otherwise of whatever MOD they use, rate or support.

I don't suppose it would be too difficult for everyone to be positive about certain aspects of any MOD they have played or in fact negative on certain aspects of said MOD as well.

I have played most if not all of the major MODS (apart from NYGM) in SH3 and was fortunate enough to be invited to beta test GWX so it could be reasonably assumed that I will have a certain element of bias toward GWX....that would be the viewpoint of some people yet I could counter claim that having had the experience of playing so many other MODs gives me the experience and or credibility of holding a valid viewpoint of my own.

This thread reinforces my belief of how valuable and worthwhile it is being a member of such a great forum as this where people feel able to express such a wide and varied and diverse set of views in the spirit of open and honest/transparent debate.
Might I suggest that rather than allow this thread to degenerate into a plethora of insulting remarks people kindly express which is their preferred MOD. They might also want to give a reason why.
I'm of the opinion that GWX is head and shoulders above any other MOD and the sheer weight of the number of GWX users backed up by the astronomical number of posts is without a doubt fitting tribute to a MOD that will probably never be surpassed for years to come.

mookiemookie · 01-23-07, 03:17 PM

STAY AWAY FROM THE ENGLISH CHANNEL!

Of course this doesn't help you in your current situation, but that should be the lesson learned here.

AVGWarhawk · 01-23-07, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gasparweb

Due my particpation in this thread, i must admit that this is a very predecible discussion.

In my opinion, oRGY (who seems to abandon this thread) dont show a lack of respect, but this never was the objective of the thread.

Cleaning up the mess they are two considerations:

1) The *English* Channel is almost a worst-case scenario: shalow, very patroled and narrow.
2) The AI of DD (and other warships) in the early days (1939 to Feb 1940) is maybe a little too precise. However this is not a downside of GWX, since it has a superb pdf Manual with a own definition of REALISM.

To GWX users:
¿Have you escape DD's (2~5) attacks in shallow waters in GOOD weather? (even at night) .Is a simple cuestion, i just wont know yours experiencies.
Which Grids near England are most "traveled by merchants" in 1939? the East Side? Experiencies are welcome.

I repeat my regards to ALL the sailors.

As Mookie stated, stay away from the channel. The British had pretty good control of it from start to finish of WW2. Furthermore it is shallow and you need depth as part of escape. Can it be done with 5 DD looking for you? Yes in early war it can. I have done it and that is after hitting a mine. Things were grim but I ran silent and as deep as I could go. This was while exiting a minefield

The weather was good also. In the later years I would not bet on getting out alive. Sonar was just that good and with 3-5 trianglating with sonar, your in deep trouble.

For best shipping routes, in your map screen, upper left hand corner you can click and drag down the shipping lanes map. Use this as a guide for the grids you would see activity. Also, early years you will see single ships when you hit 40-41 it is convoy city. More ships then you care to count.

PS. Welcome aboard!

ref · 01-23-07, 07:12 PM

Come on guys, I'm now on my 13th patrol on my career in mid 41, averaging 50000 tons per patrol, 70+ realism, and I'm not an excelent player, I had bad encounters with DDs, and I had to cripple my way back home, but the only cases they detected me was because I had planned a bad approach to a convoy or I tried to sink more ships than I should in one attack, if you do your homework and you're not too greedy it's not difficult at all. You must remember that GWX is ment to be a simulator, if you wan't some arcadish thing go back to stock, don't take this advice in the bad way, is the same as if you play falcon 4, it took me two or three months to be able to finish a couple of straight missions, and the way I learn was with a f16 pilot handbook, once I read it I realize how bad I was doing things. You can't approach a faster, better armed oponent in some sort of cowboy duel, you must be sneaky...

Ref

melnibonian · 01-23-07, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ref

Come on guys, I'm now on my 13th patrol on my career in mid 41, averaging 50000 tons per patrol, 70+ realism, and I'm not an excelent player, I had bad encounters with DDs, and I had to cripple my way back home, but the only cases they detected me was because I had planned a bad approach to a convoy or I tried to sink more ships than I should in one attack, if you do your homework and you're not too greedy it's not difficult at all. You must remember that GWX is ment to be a simulator, if you wan't some arcadish thing go back to stock, don't take this advice in the bad way, is the same as if you play falcon 4, it took me two or three months to be able to finish a couple of straight missions, and the way I learn was with a f16 pilot handbook, once I read it I realize how bad I was doing things. You can't approach a faster, better armed oponent in some sort of cowboy duel, you must be sneaky...

Ref

Well said Ref

I have the same view. I'm in February 1942 in GWX and I'm having 40-60000 tons per patrol. I think that if you plan your attacks carefully and you are a bit patient you can get away with murder in GWX. DDs are dangerous but not deadly. I have attacked a couple of convoys using different tactics. I have done night surface attacks, proper submerged attacks, even an attack while I was stationary with a depth below keel at 2m!!!! If you're sneaky and you think like a U-Boat Captain you can achieve a lot. I always try to set up ambushes instead of attacking guns blazing, but I can understand that it takes time to learn the techniques. My suggestion to everyone is to keep trying. GWX is a fantastic mod and if you stick with it and experiment a bit you will get the rewards. If you try different tactics you will soon find the ones that work for you. It's all about patience

Ducimus · 01-23-07, 07:44 PM

Am i going to have to make with the MS Paint pictures to illustrate things again?

edit:

Meh.
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...62&postcount=3

GT182 · 01-23-07, 09:33 PM

On a whim I tried and made it thru the Channel in Oct of 40. I know... stay away from the Channel, yes I've said it too. But curiosity got the better of me and I had to give it a go.

Hug the southern coast
If they come looking for you, run Silent and at 1, but no more than 2 kts.
If they drop DCs, go to Flank speed, get as low as you can, until the last one explodes and drop back to 1 kt.
If they circle and drop DCs again and they're a ways off, you're in the clear.
So come to a full stop and sit still . It might be a long wait but as long as you are still Silent and at 0 kts, you'll make it out of there alive.

I had to do this twice. Once N. of Calais and once N. of Cherborg. Pucker factor of 10 each time. I've also done the sit and wait thing many times before in the first 5 patrols of GWX, and it works. No sound no movement and they don't seem to be able to find you. On my way back to Lorient in the 5th patrol in BE39 I had a Black Swan hunt for me for over 3 "game" hours while I sat still. He ran by within 150 meters and didn't even know we were there. Tho 200 meters further on he kept dropping DCs. Kept doing figur 8s around us and hadn't a clue.

Now on the other hand, enemy a/c are the hard part and they will radio in the warships. If you see enemy a/c, dive and stay down changing course often for the next 2 hours of game time. Do not use TC over 2 tho. For some reason anything over that and you're detected.

Ducimus · 01-23-07, 09:38 PM

Isn't it amazing how hard shallow water can make things out to be? I mean you have two major chock points in the game.

English channel and the straight of gibralter.

The former can acutaly be a challenge, the later is just boring. Hell, i take the soundman out of his stations so it goes by faster.

01-23-07, 12:53 PM	#17
gasparweb Watch Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 17 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Thank to everybody! I'll try a sucide mission now: torpedos & collisons + some Deck Gun Not much hope, but... On the sucesive patrols, i will never took the "channel of death" path anymore. Maybe oRGy is right about the unrealistic early days in GWX. Im reading "The great war on the sea" by W. Nimitz (YES, Nimitz) and the reference about U-Boats vs DD in 1939-1940 seems to agree with oRGy. However i will keep trying with GWX. __________________

01-23-07, 12:54 PM	#18
HunterICX Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2006 Location: Malaga, España Posts: 10,750 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Using the Historical Valeus into SH3 doesnt give you the HISTORICAL outcome it doesnt, why? simple you cannot model AI stupidity or unawareness. and I 180 Meters in 1939, Dont make me laugh. I have been detected a couple of times in 1939, I never dove deeper then 60 - 80 meters. and 1 time I had 5 DDs above me in the ENGLISH channel they KNEW I was there...they Pinged me, and guess what the Accuracy is so off that they dropped DCs 30 - 50 Meters around me not even doing the slightest damage. 30 meters was my MAX or else I slammed into the bottom...I had to manourve for a couple of hours...and I had some luck , it turned dark and I could creep away. but that was clear weather. and ofcourse 1939 is easy. but read the title of the game ''!!!!!SILENT!!!!! hunter 3'' dont take the enemy on easy. btw...maybe you should install SH3 again and try GWX before yourself before you blame the sensors beeing to uber. they are NOT. Stock Sh3 was ARCADE style, and now it gets a bit too realistic and BOOHOOO I get myself sunk too much. I cant duke it out on the surface anymore. I cant attack convoy in my rampage way. maybe you should act as a REAL uboat commander before complaing because in RL they could Cry that the Enemy sensors where to uber...why not...they where busy trying to be as silent as posible.....or they where sleeping with the fishes. If they where uber...why is my U-45 still alive ? and I made some errors and paid for it...but I had to change my way of playing the game. this game is about using ur brains! and not brutal force and sink the biggest ships. __________________

01-23-07, 02:20 PM	#20
Capt.Crackerjack Loader Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 84 Downloads: 28 Uploads: 0	GWX Sensors A Tad Too High :hmm: I am a huge GWX fan. However, after extensive testing, in my humble opinion, I must reluctantly agree that the new DD sensor levels in GWX are just a tad (10-12%) too high, i.e. precise. I also believe that simply making it extremely difficult is not a guaranteed path of making it realistic. Therefore, I am hoping and requesting the DD sensors may be slightly reduced for the January 31 update.

01-23-07, 02:59 PM	#22
gasparweb Watch Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Argentina Posts: 17 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	A predecible discussion Due my particpation in this thread, i must admit that this is a very predecible discussion. In my opinion, oRGY (who seems to abandon this thread) dont show a lack of respect, but this never was the objective of the thread. Cleaning up the mess they are two considerations: 1) The English Channel is almost a worst-case scenario: shalow, very patroled and narrow. 2) The AI of DD (and other warships) in the early days (1939 to Feb 1940) is maybe a little too precise. However this is not a downside of GWX, since it has a superb pdf Manual with a own definition of REALISM. To GWX users: ¿Have you escape DD's (2~5) attacks in shallow waters in GOOD weather? (even at night) .Is a simple cuestion, i just wont know yours experiencies. Which Grids near England are most "traveled by merchants" in 1939? the East Side? Experiencies are welcome. I repeat my regards to ALL the sailors. __________________

01-23-07, 03:12 PM	#23
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,500 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	This debate will never have an all party amicable conclusion where everybody rides off into the sunset whistling merrily Everyone is entitled to their opinion on the merits or otherwise of whatever MOD they use, rate or support. I don't suppose it would be too difficult for everyone to be positive about certain aspects of any MOD they have played or in fact negative on certain aspects of said MOD as well. I have played most if not all of the major MODS (apart from NYGM) in SH3 and was fortunate enough to be invited to beta test GWX so it could be reasonably assumed that I will have a certain element of bias toward GWX....that would be the viewpoint of some people yet I could counter claim that having had the experience of playing so many other MODs gives me the experience and or credibility of holding a valid viewpoint of my own. This thread reinforces my belief of how valuable and worthwhile it is being a member of such a great forum as this where people feel able to express such a wide and varied and diverse set of views in the spirit of open and honest/transparent debate. Might I suggest that rather than allow this thread to degenerate into a plethora of insulting remarks people kindly express which is their preferred MOD. They might also want to give a reason why. I'm of the opinion that GWX is head and shoulders above any other MOD and the sheer weight of the number of GWX users backed up by the astronomical number of posts is without a doubt fitting tribute to a MOD that will probably never be surpassed for years to come. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

01-23-07, 03:17 PM	#24
mookiemookie Navy Seal Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 9,404 Downloads: 105 Uploads: 1	STAY AWAY FROM THE ENGLISH CHANNEL! Of course this doesn't help you in your current situation, but that should be the lesson learned here. __________________ They don’t think it be like it is, but it do. Want more U-boat Kaleun portraits for your SH3 Commander Profiles? Download the SH3 Commander Portrait Pack here.

01-23-07, 07:12 PM	#26
ref Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Mar del Plata, Argentina Posts: 871 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Come on guys, I'm now on my 13th patrol on my career in mid 41, averaging 50000 tons per patrol, 70+ realism, and I'm not an excelent player, I had bad encounters with DDs, and I had to cripple my way back home, but the only cases they detected me was because I had planned a bad approach to a convoy or I tried to sink more ships than I should in one attack, if you do your homework and you're not too greedy it's not difficult at all. You must remember that GWX is ment to be a simulator, if you wan't some arcadish thing go back to stock, don't take this advice in the bad way, is the same as if you play falcon 4, it took me two or three months to be able to finish a couple of straight missions, and the way I learn was with a f16 pilot handbook, once I read it I realize how bad I was doing things. You can't approach a faster, better armed oponent in some sort of cowboy duel, you must be sneaky... Ref __________________

01-23-07, 07:44 PM	#28
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Am i going to have to make with the MS Paint pictures to illustrate things again? edit: Meh. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...62&postcount=3 Last edited by Ducimus; 01-23-07 at 07:59 PM.

01-23-07, 09:33 PM	#29
GT182 Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: New Castle of Delaware Posts: 3,231 Downloads: 658 Uploads: 0	On a whim I tried and made it thru the Channel in Oct of 40. I know... stay away from the Channel, yes I've said it too. But curiosity got the better of me and I had to give it a go. Hug the southern coast If they come looking for you, run Silent and at 1, but no more than 2 kts. If they drop DCs, go to Flank speed, get as low as you can, until the last one explodes and drop back to 1 kt. If they circle and drop DCs again and they're a ways off, you're in the clear. So come to a full stop and sit still . It might be a long wait but as long as you are still Silent and at 0 kts, you'll make it out of there alive. I had to do this twice. Once N. of Calais and once N. of Cherborg. Pucker factor of 10 each time. I've also done the sit and wait thing many times before in the first 5 patrols of GWX, and it works. No sound no movement and they don't seem to be able to find you. On my way back to Lorient in the 5th patrol in BE39 I had a Black Swan hunt for me for over 3 "game" hours while I sat still. He ran by within 150 meters and didn't even know we were there. Tho 200 meters further on he kept dropping DCs. Kept doing figur 8s around us and hadn't a clue. Now on the other hand, enemy a/c are the hard part and they will radio in the warships. If you see enemy a/c, dive and stay down changing course often for the next 2 hours of game time. Do not use TC over 2 tho. For some reason anything over that and you're detected. __________________ Gary No Borders, No Language, No Culture =s No Country I'm a Deplorable, and proud of it.

01-23-07, 09:38 PM	#30
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Isn't it amazing how hard shallow water can make things out to be? I mean you have two major chock points in the game. English channel and the straight of gibralter. The former can acutaly be a challenge, the later is just boring. Hell, i take the soundman out of his stations so it goes by faster.