UK Friday 5th 21:00 BBC2 - Timewatch: The Hunt for U-864

[Paajtor]

Yes, same here, Seth...
I have a top-quality recorder - a 6-head hifi stereo Philips - but it's VHS, which I can't copy.
If I had a dvd-recorder, I would be glad to send a copy over to Norway.
But who knows...maybe someone else will step up!

[Jimbuna]

Bump!!
Nearly time people

[martxyz]

Just watched the film - great! The film production credits read as follows:

"Spiegel TV and Cream Productions for ZDF, BBC, History Canada, Discovery Science, in association with LA7, History UK, and NRK"

I hope this means that the documentary will be able to be seen by a wider audience.

The documentary was especially interesting because of the logic that the British Sub Captain used to achieve a reasonable firing solution in a situation where his information was limited.

The wreck itself is now a serious ecological hazhard, because of its cargo.

Well worth the watch.

Martin

[mr chris]

Yep was a great programe very intersting indeed. The Uboat memorial at the end had me very very shocked 30,000 names take up alot of room. May god rest there souls.

[Jimbuna]

Yep...a very well put together documentary/programme...worthy of the world famous broadcasting institution (BBC)

[martxyz]

Although he didn't contribute much, the well respected naval historian, Eric Groves, was in the documentary. He featured strongly in a previous Timewatch programme about the Graf Spee, and the Battle of the River Plate. He has an astounding knowledge of this matter and has written a book about it (The Price of Disobedience). He was clearly very impressed by the humanity of Langsdorff. In the same run, there was a programme about the wreck of the Ark Royal, in the Med., and also about the first confederate sub during the American Civil War, and how it came to sink, following it's attack.

What comes through from all these programmes is that seamen have something of a common bond. One of the pilots from the Ark Royal witnessed the sinking Bismark, and the men dying in the water. He felt glad the Bismark was done for, but so very sad for the crew. In tonight's documentary, it was clear that the initial euphoria of killing the u-boat (after a real feeling of apprehension that the u-boat might get them instead) was quickly folowed by the realisation that they knew that they'd just killed fellow submariners, in the most ghastly way.

This isn't the sort of thing you tend to hear much in people recounting their experiences of the ground war.

My dad was a chaplain for The Missions to Seamen (now called The Mission to Seafarers, I think) for 10 years, so I got to go on-board a couple of diesel subs whilst they were still in commission, and talk to the crew. Ghastly machines. Stuffy, cramped and claustrophobic. A very limited supply of water, and hot-bedding sleeping arrangements. During war-time, they must have been horrific places at times. Must take a very special sort of person.

Anyway; if you get the chance to see the programme, it was well worth it.

Cheers,
Martin

[STEED]

Another winner from Time Watch.

[Von Hinten]

I watched it with a fellow captain of mine and we agreed that we need to see this kind of documentaries more often.

[andy_311]

I just watched it and found it fascinating the only thing am puzzled with correct me if am wrong but when the Brit sub fired it's fish at 17.5 seconds intervals I assumed it stayed at the same depth and the u-boat captain avoided the first 3 toprs so how did he turn into the 4 fish as the program explained he "ordered hard to port emergency dive to 40 m" so if he avoid the first 3 wouldn't the 4th one be just as easy to avoid?

[_Seth_]

Its hard without BBC, mateys..
I dont know if it has any copyright issues, but if someone has a copy i would really like to see this.. If it is legal.

[Fidd]

I thought it was rather poor myself - in the writing. There seemed to be a lot of confusion and mixing of terms - particularly "hydrophones" (passive) and "sonar" and "asdic" (wtf!) when characterising how the venturer managed to acquire the Uboat while both were underwater (and without alerting the U-boat). It never suggested for what purpose the Japs wanted 60 tons of mercury for - which would have been interesting, nor looked in any detail at the Norwegian proposals for sealing the wreck-site - which are very contentious on several grounds.

All in all, worth taping and watching, but could have been done a lot better. IMHO.

[JU_88]

Yeah I watched this one, it could have been better... but it was still very intresting to get some idea how HMS Venturer accomplished the nearly impossible.

Makes you realise what we are missing out on in SH3 (and in SH4)

[martxyz]

As regards the 4 torpedoes, my impression was that the captain had made a calculation that the u-boat commander would follow normal evasive procedure, when attacked by torpedoes coming in that direction. It wasn't entirely clear though it was hinted at. The u-boat commander knew he had loud engines, and was zig-zagging to minimize the risk. However, the risks he anticipated were surface vessels. He was also inexperienced, and really had no good idea of what the situation was. He apparently followed a "standard" evasion procedure when the first torpedo missed. This effectively stopped him zig-zagging, in favour of taking evasive manoeuvres. My impression was that the sub captain had guessed that the u-boat would react in this way and accounted for it. His spread and timing of torpedoes, if I understood it right, may have effectively driven the u-boat into his 4th torpedo, because with each torpedo, the u-boat's orientation and depth would have become increasingly predictable.

As to the loose use of terms, I imagine that they sacrificed some consistent terminology in order to tell a smooth story to a wide public. I did find it a bit disorientating when they chopped continually between 1945 and today, but that's quite common in modern documentaries. Timewatch does it much less than some. Another flagship BBC series, Horizon, at one point became so verbose, by attempting to tell a great tale and make it seem "epic", that they took an hour to say what could have been told in 5 minutes. Happily, things have improved.

I may have enjoyed the documentary more than some because I know a lot less about the subject. I'd still highly recommend it to anybody as a great "ripping yarn".

[Letum]

Originally Posted by martxyz

The u-boat commander knew he had loud engines, and was zig-zagging to minimize the risk. However, the risks he anticipated were surface vessels.

Submerged zigzagging is too slow to confuse enemy aircraft and pointless against destroyers at such shallow depth.
The only reason he could have had for zigzagging whilst at periscope depth is that he was worried about torpedoes. Perhaps it was known that British submarines operated in that area or perhaps torpedo boats where expected. :hmm:

[martxyz]

Hi Letum,

unfortunately I can only go from the programme, which stated that he was unaware of a threat from another submarine, and the zigg-zag pattern was to confuse surface vessels. You may be right, but I was just recounting the information in the programme. The u-boat was in periodic radio contact and I suspect that the transcripts of these messages were used to confirm that he was not expecting trouble from another sub. I can't tell you any more I'm afraid, as I simply don't know enough about it.

Cheers,

martin