GWX...ships have superhuman vision! They see me before my lookouts see them - Page 2

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-20-06, 12:02 PM

No ffense to anyone... but I flatly disagree that the AI visual detection is uber... or "over the top."

Six months of research and testing went into this one area alone in GWX.

Also, if you are getting very close in broad daylight without being seen in the surface... I start to suspect that players may have changed their files... which is fine. To each his own.

More than just the optics are dealt with concerning the visual detection in GWX... speed/wake and surface area (aspect ratio) exposed are important factors as well.

Again, page 14 in the manual will explain much.

ref · 12-20-06, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

I suppose there different factors to consider, an escort watch crew have better visibility that a uboat watch as they have the advantage of elevation. However a uboat has a relativly small profile and doesnt produce a smoke stack, so its a close call as to who would spot who first, of course once you throw radar in to the equasion, its a whole differnt ball game. :hmm:

I live in a town by the sea, and with a glass sea (no waves or very small ones), you can spot a zodiac type boat at 3 or more km bare eyes, sometimes is not the size of the object, but it's reflect/color properties in contrast with the ocean, the same applies to planes, depending on the circumstances you can spot an airplane at 10 km or more because it's reflections.

Ref

Sailor Steve · 12-20-06, 12:15 PM

Good points, ref. Also it should be noted that the human eye is more apt to notice movement than to see an actual object. Part of the 'reflection' of a boat is its wake, and we are more likely to see the discrepancy of an airplane's movement before we would see the plane itself.

sergbuto · 12-20-06, 01:58 PM

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.

ref · 12-20-06, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergbuto

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.

No doubt about that, you're looking at a 30 mts high dark column against a bright background, what I don't know is how (and if) the game takes into account the particles, on the sensors you can adjust the minimum size of an object to be detected, but does this value includes the particles?, and what happen if you reduce the particles in video settings, the smoke is harder to detect?

Ref

Sailor Steve · 12-20-06, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergbuto

But smoke on horizon beats any optics.

On a clear day submarines should have an advantage in spotting, but the main question is how close is close? How far away should an escort spot you? In AOD I usually closed to about 5000 meters before diving. Same with SHIII. When I checked out NYGM I was a little upset that they saw me at 7000 meters in the "Happy Times" mission.

The reality? I don't know. And I would love to find out the truth.:hmm:

clayton · 12-20-06, 05:56 PM

I agree, the AI seems to see you far to easy during the happy times! There have been times when I have been submerged awaiting a Convoy when I have been detected from far out and the excort races ahead to depth charge. And no, my periscope is not up or am I leaving some 6knot wake. Also, the U-Boat handbook was written in 1942 with the current version, or the one we read today, is a new edition circa 1943. Alot had changed since the happy times of 40 - 41. On the subject of Radar, there were only 30 escorts in Sept 41 who had the new thing called RADAR. They were not only new and troublesome, but they did not have enough technicians to even maintain them. So, my point being, I believe the developers made the game more challanging to satisfy your average gamer; not your hardcore simmer. I just wonder if these areas are hard coded???

NSDQ

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-20-06, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayton

I agree, the AI seems to see you far to easy during the happy times! There have been times when I have been submerged awaiting a Convoy when I have been detected from far out and the excort races ahead to depth charge. And no, my periscope is not up or am I leaving some 6knot wake. Also, the U-Boat handbook was written in 1942 with the current version, or the one we read today, is a new edition circa 1943. Alot had changed since the happy times of 40 - 41. On the subject of Radar, there were only 30 escorts in Sept 41 who had the new thing called RADAR. They were not only new and troublesome, but they did not have enough technicians to even maintain them. So, my point being, I believe the developers made the game more challanging to satisfy your average gamer; not your hardcore simmer. I just wonder if these areas are hard coded???

NSDQ

Your post is rather disjointed and mashed together so it is difficult to address. (no offense meant) However, to answer your question... if you are submerged then you were detected by other means... not by visual detection.

Regarding the U-boat Commander's Handbook... we are talking about the same book regardless.

Which developers do you refer to? What mods are you using if any?

ref · 12-20-06, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayton

or am I leaving some 6knot wak

If you're doing 6 knots submerged it's sure they can hear you from a long distance...

Ref

clayton · 12-20-06, 06:29 PM

Sorry for the post! I'm not a regular poster so I tend to write all of the things (issues) I've compiled! I'm using GWX and am currently loving it. The 39 - 40 war is far superior with your mod than stock. That being said, my above post is a response to this whole uber escort thing. It seems that the escorts are alittle to tough; with all mods, not just GWX! Again, I believe the developers did this for playability and not for diehard simmers. As far as the 6 knot thing, I've had escorts break from a convoy and zero in on me from the horizon while I'm at 30 - 40 ft running about 2 knots - and this during 41. Thats just not correct! BTW I'm a Paramedic also!!!

NSDQ

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-20-06, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clayton

Sorry for the post! I'm not a regular poster so I tend to write all of the things (issues) I've compiled! I'm using GWX and am currently loving it. The 39 - 40 war is far superior with your mod than stock. That being said, my above post is a response to this whole uber escort thing. It seems that the escorts are alittle to tough; with all mods, not just GWX! Again, I believe the developers did this for playability and not for diehard simmers. As far as the 6 knot thing, I've had escorts break from a convoy and zero in on me from the horizon while I'm at 30 - 40 ft running about 2 knots - and this during 41. Thats just not correct! BTW I'm a Paramedic also!!!

NSDQ

Roger that no worries.

So what you mean to tell me is that your posts looklikemyhandwrittenpatientcarereports! My handwriting gets worse every year I keep doing that job LOL. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Funny thing is... one minute I hate my job... next minute my job is depressing... and occasionally I love my job. Argh... makes ya feel manic sometimes.

At any rate... are you forgetting to order silent running? It could also be that the escorts are just doing their programmed sweeps and got lucky with you. I've never had a problem evading the escorts (when I had good depth under my keel) as long as I was prepared to give up the target on occasion.

Also, if you are close... the more sensitive to sound they get. Sea state also affects their accuity... calm seas are a death trap.

If the sea is calm, I'd recommend stalking them at a (beyond visual) distance until nightfall... then sweep around to get in front of them... and wait.

Just don't hang around to watch the pretty explosions.

Keep playing at it.

If the demand is high enough I can release an "intermediate" level sensors mod to tone a few things down... but not all. Adjusting the sensors is like adjusting a stero equalizer... You can't just alter one and get it right.

(Speaking of work... I have to get ready soon.)

clayton · 12-20-06, 06:50 PM

I'll keep at it! What the hell else am I going to do!

NFTR

NSDQ

hocking · 12-20-06, 07:38 PM

Were you sitting motionless, or moving at under 3 knots, while at parascope depth when the escorts spoted you? Keep in mind that your tower will definitely break the surface when you are traveling at under 3 knots, or sitting motionless, while at parascope depth. In fact, traveling at around 3 knots a parascope depth will throw a spray of salt water that looks like a whale playing around on the surface of the water. I tested it today, and sure enough, very very noticeable to anyone around.

If this was the case, this may have been what they saw and went after. I have no idea what distance you were from the escorts when they discovered you, but this may be relevant if they discovered you from a short distance out.

Paajtor · 12-20-06, 07:50 PM

I noticed that my watch-crew (1st GWX-patrol) is less experienced than myself, when it comes to locating ships.
They always call out seconds later than I can....which I like!

That is with a watch-officer AND a watch-pettyofficer with the watch-tag on duty, btw...and boosted sailors on the remaining slots.

It makes me feel they need the Kaleun himself on the bridge, to judge in difficult situations, know what I mean?
So far, the GWX-compromise (it's always a compromise, ain't it?) feels about right.
I think a few more patrols are needed, to see for myself if it's spot-on.

dean_acheson · 12-20-06, 08:58 PM

I can't wait to try a surface night attack on a convoy, it has NEVER worked before...

12-20-06, 12:02 PM	#16
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 6,994 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	No ffense to anyone... but I flatly disagree that the AI visual detection is uber... or "over the top." Six months of research and testing went into this one area alone in GWX. Also, if you are getting very close in broad daylight without being seen in the surface... I start to suspect that players may have changed their files... which is fine. To each his own. More than just the optics are dealt with concerning the visual detection in GWX... speed/wake and surface area (aspect ratio) exposed are important factors as well. Again, page 14 in the manual will explain much. __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

12-20-06, 12:15 PM	#18
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Good points, ref. Also it should be noted that the human eye is more apt to notice movement than to see an actual object. Part of the 'reflection' of a boat is its wake, and we are more likely to see the discrepancy of an airplane's movement before we would see the plane itself. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

12-20-06, 01:58 PM	#19
sergbuto Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 1,331 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	But smoke on horizon beats any optics. __________________ Serg's SH4 and SH3 pages

12-20-06, 07:50 PM	#29
Paajtor The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: The Dutch mountains Posts: 1,551 Downloads: 64 Uploads: 1	I noticed that my watch-crew (1st GWX-patrol) is less experienced than myself, when it comes to locating ships. They always call out seconds later than I can....which I like! That is with a watch-officer AND a watch-pettyofficer with the watch-tag on duty, btw...and boosted sailors on the remaining slots. It makes me feel they need the Kaleun himself on the bridge, to judge in difficult situations, know what I mean? So far, the GWX-compromise (it's always a compromise, ain't it?) feels about right. I think a few more patrols are needed, to see for myself if it's spot-on. __________________

12-20-06, 05:56 PM	#22
clayton Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: At your mom's house... Posts: 571 Downloads: 218 Uploads: 0	I agree, the AI seems to see you far to easy during the happy times! There have been times when I have been submerged awaiting a Convoy when I have been detected from far out and the excort races ahead to depth charge. And no, my periscope is not up or am I leaving some 6knot wake. Also, the U-Boat handbook was written in 1942 with the current version, or the one we read today, is a new edition circa 1943. Alot had changed since the happy times of 40 - 41. On the subject of Radar, there were only 30 escorts in Sept 41 who had the new thing called RADAR. They were not only new and troublesome, but they did not have enough technicians to even maintain them. So, my point being, I believe the developers made the game more challanging to satisfy your average gamer; not your hardcore simmer. I just wonder if these areas are hard coded??? NSDQ

12-20-06, 06:29 PM	#25
clayton Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: At your mom's house... Posts: 571 Downloads: 218 Uploads: 0	Sorry for the post! I'm not a regular poster so I tend to write all of the things (issues) I've compiled! I'm using GWX and am currently loving it. The 39 - 40 war is far superior with your mod than stock. That being said, my above post is a response to this whole uber escort thing. It seems that the escorts are alittle to tough; with all mods, not just GWX! Again, I believe the developers did this for playability and not for diehard simmers. As far as the 6 knot thing, I've had escorts break from a convoy and zero in on me from the horizon while I'm at 30 - 40 ft running about 2 knots - and this during 41. Thats just not correct! BTW I'm a Paramedic also!!! NSDQ

12-20-06, 06:50 PM	#27
clayton Samurai Navy Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: At your mom's house... Posts: 571 Downloads: 218 Uploads: 0	I'll keep at it! What the hell else am I going to do! NFTR NSDQ

12-20-06, 07:38 PM	#28
hocking Sparky Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 154 Downloads: 156 Uploads: 0	Were you sitting motionless, or moving at under 3 knots, while at parascope depth when the escorts spoted you? Keep in mind that your tower will definitely break the surface when you are traveling at under 3 knots, or sitting motionless, while at parascope depth. In fact, traveling at around 3 knots a parascope depth will throw a spray of salt water that looks like a whale playing around on the surface of the water. I tested it today, and sure enough, very very noticeable to anyone around. If this was the case, this may have been what they saw and went after. I have no idea what distance you were from the escorts when they discovered you, but this may be relevant if they discovered you from a short distance out.

12-20-06, 08:58 PM	#30
dean_acheson Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Midwest - USA Posts: 1,057 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	I can't wait to try a surface night attack on a convoy, it has NEVER worked before...