[MOD Release] World Map mod for GWX

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by jcwolf

Carotio said
3) About loading sceen - yes I made one out of GW/GWX! Is it because, I want it to appear as my mod alone? No, it's not! I do intend users to try GWX first as it is! When I have modified, what I want to modify and release a GWX-UA, the users will see that it has been added, and then they can compare, if they like the original GWX or the version with my changes! It has never been my intention to declare myself as the sole creator of GW/GWX! I AM NOT! But if some internet users think so and say it, I can understand your frustration! I DO UNDERSTAND! But is it my fault that these users can't compare for themselves? Indirectly, maybe yes! But please don't state that I'm directly responsible for that!

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Oooohh please i never saw and eared such a bunch of ballacks...

Carotio, you know that your mods are cool great, but you must know that the map GWX haves is related conected to the entire rewrited campaign that also is a
new thing in GWX, well that brings us to the ships, to historic facts, to what ever
that is new and rebuild on GWX...

If you add changes of your own, maybe it's better
for you to rewrite your own campaign and ships to go with those new maps...

"I specially like this part"

I actually announced this mod back in june, when I had already worked on it for some months! I think I started to work on the LND last winter, and then on-off for some time, when I had time!!
I think I may have used 10 months to write this LND file, and then you use 10 minutes to declare this work as a piece of cr*p work!
So how do you think, I feel?


Oh come on dude, you mean you add the GWX before us?



Most off all your mod will damage the GWX integrity and can cause Mod Disfunction...And that is the point...

History?
well, I changed the dates because of my sources (except Uruguay)!

Rewrite?
well, look I wrote all the cities you can see in the preview! I did! I released a beta version just a couple of days ago, which could be used for stock users as well. When GWX came, I simply tried to use the merge function in SH3 editor, but removing dublicates! This way it could be used with GWX as well, cause someone told me, he experienced a CTD, when applying the beta version!
Just one of my usual "ballacks" comparisons: if a scientist wants to find a cure for a decease, is he required to start from scratch and thus making more errors, or may he not use the allready at hand made discovered research results from other scientists to fasten his research? So basically, if I have an idea - about putting cities on the map around the entire world in SH3 - I can only work from scratch making a stock version improvement, and then it's illegal for me to make a compatible version for GWX? Basically that's what you're saying to me!

Adding GWX before?
NO, NO; NO; NO; NO; NOOOOOOOOOOO! Read part 3 of my last commentary again! I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE THE AUTHOR OF GWX!!!!!

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by Carotio

History?
well, I changed the dates because of my sources (except Uruguay)!

Rewrite?
well, look I wrote all the cities you can see in the preview! I did! I released a beta version just a couple of days ago, which could be used for stock users as well. When GWX came, I simply tried to use the merge function in SH3 editor, but removing dublicates! This way it could be used with GWX as well, cause someone told me, he experienced a CTD, when applying the beta version!
Just one of my usual "ballacks" comparisons: if a scientist wants to find a cure for a decease, is he required to start from scratch and thus making more errors, or may he not use the allready at hand made discovered research results from other scientists to fasten his research? So basically, if I have an idea - about putting cities on the map around the entire world in SH3 - I can only work from scratch making a stock version improvement, and then it's illegal for me to make a compatible version for GWX? Basically that's what you're saying to me!

Adding GWX before?
NO, NO; NO; NO; NO; NOOOOOOOOOOO! Read part 3 of my last commentary again! I DO NOT CLAIM TO BE THE AUTHOR OF GWX!!!!!

Thats the point bro, it's not your Mod,
it is a simple usage of others work to credit yourself
in SHIII community ....

Read VonHelschings Post above...

You ar raping the work of:

GWX Team

“Kpt Lehmann” Project Manager

“AG124” Shipping; 3D Modeling
“bigboywooly” Campaign Scripting
“Boris” Lead Graphic Artist; German Translations
“Cdre Gibs” Chief of Shipping, 3D Modeling, Hydrodynamic Physics, and Sensors Coding
“Dowly” Graphic Artist
“Ducimus” Expanded Flotillas
“fubar” Graphic Artist
“gouldjg” Effects Modeling; Damage and Sensors research
“ichneumon” Graphic Artist
“JCWolf” Graphic Artist
“JScones” Chief Architect of Expanded Flotillas; Campaign Research; Quality Control;
Documentation; Installer
“MRV” Sound
“Nippelspanner” German Translations; Sound
“Pablo” R&D (Research and Documentation)
“Pants” Chief Researcher
“Ref” Chief of 3D Modeling
“Rubini” Chief of Campaign Scripting
“Scirè” Campaign Scripting
“Syxx_Killer” Quality Control
“VonHelsching” Chief of Damage Modeling

And:

GWX Beta Testers

“Dancanovas”

“Danlisa”
“Deep_Six”
“Ducimus”
“ecm747x”
“Etna”
“Fredbass”
“GT182”
“HunterIXC”
“Irish1958”
“Jaxa”
“Jimbuna”
“KapitanFred”
“Kpt. Munson”
“Kylania”
“Melnibonian”
“Mobeygrape”
“mountainmanUK”
“Mr Chris”
“P-Funk”
“Respinus”
“Stabiz”
“U-snafu”
“Venatore”

No more then 45 people who worked on this Mod !

Do you understand now!:hmm:

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by JScones

Here's the thing - the bold text demonstrates to me that you have released this without any consideration of the broader workings of GWX. As GWX itself has been out only a few days, I would suggest that thorough integration testing was nil. Indeed, your own comment supports this view.

Curiously who do you think the "someone" is that will clean up after you? The GWX devs? The users of your mod? :hmm:

Don't get me wrong, variety is good, but if you are gonna leach off someone else's product, at least don't cannibalise it in the process. I don't think any GWX dev would have a problem if your add-ons were thoroughly tested and didn't "break" anything. But here's the thing, your track record has proven that you simply fix files here and there with disregard to everything that hangs off them and how they all fit together.

Don't believe me? Read BBW's responses again.

It all simply boils down to one thing - you have shown absolutely no respect to GW or GWX with your "hacks". Do you expect to receive respect and support in return?

You're missing the point. It's irrelevant what the devs did, be it right or wrong. If you come along and simply change one file and say "look, I've fixed", well, what have you broken in the process?

Good luck anyway.

1) read post 1 again: I edited it making a statement: if errors occur, it's me who is responsible! If users can't read and consult you, well, then I can only be indirectly responsible for that, for which I'm sorry!

2) I don't expect to receive gratitude from GWX team, as I break some of the intended features of GWX! I just provide an alternative, as you provide an alternative to stock, NYGM, RuB, LivingSH3 etc. What I could wish for you, is simply that you GWX Team members just ignored me instead of calling me a stealing parasite or what is worse!! At least, I don't go out and charge money for my changes! If people don't like my changes, they can just disable the mods again.....

3) I didn't expect to be attacked this harshly, just because I provided an alternative, so it's difficult to keep up with defensive commentaries and answers, and now Christmas is coming up, so I will try think positive instead and hope for you to do the same! And please don't feel that I P*SS on your mod, it's a great mod! I just like it with all the cities, so I did a merge for myself, but offer it to others for free!

So merry Christmas to you! And thanks for your all your previous work!

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Now, cloning the same pattern for RuB and GW1.1a, Carotio stated that he intends to build a GWX-UA (unchange - adding). This concept (the UA for an already built product) is flawed and morally / ethically challenged.

Adding some cities on the map, some harbour traffic and a couple of other changes and essentially re-releasing 99,9% of GWX, simply because he can, is morally and ethically wrong. And not a matter of taste, or adding new flavors or spices to GWX. In fact, Carotio, stated that he would make the UA version, even before the GWX release, revealing his intentions.

To cut the story short, the "UA" concept is a simple exploitation of other people´s work. And the cherry on top is the plastering of Carotio´s name in the intro screen.

Carotio, why exactly do you think the GWX Dev Team is angry just with you and no-one else that produced a mod for GWX? Simply because the other mods are for GWX and your mod is GWX itself.

I don´t know if you understand that what you are doing is wrong...

Von

Well, the U (unchange part): is to return to some stock features or to other versions! The word unchange is perhaps not too well chosen, but if I named it otherwise, it wouldn't change, what I'm doing!
I do change things back to the original version such as map updates! Yes, I like to see the icons blue/red/green, GWX team does not! It's as simple as that!

On the other hand, I just can't let you accuse me for stealing GWX and publishing it as my own! With GW and GW-UA, I stated GW-UA should be enabled after GW1.0, thus users could clearly see the changes! If they like it, is it your choice, if they may use it or not?
Yes, I intend to apply most of the same changes again to fit my likings like map updates! So what if some users don't like it your way? Is that really so offensive to you? Well, sorry! I think you GWX team members have made a great job, but you have changed some stock features, which I preferred!

And again, I don't claim your mods to be my work, though you and a few others may think so! If I base my work on yours, well, then I feel sorry if that offends you! That's still not my intention! And no matter what I say, you just don't believe me! So obviously it's pointless for me to continue to argue....

But still:
Merry Christmas to you too!

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by jumpy

mmm that 'Christmas Spirit' is rearing its ugly head again, so nice for you all to remember it at this time of year

Take it on the chin guys as from where I'm sitting it does absolutely nothing to detract from your original intent and achievement despite what you may think. Anyone who resides here at subsim for any length of time will recognise this.

Okay, thank you!
Finally someone who understands me a little!

I wish you and your family a merry Christmas, and may you enjoy plenty of joyful Christmas spirits with family and friends for the time coming!

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by jumpy

mmm that 'Christmas Spirit' is rearing its ugly head again, so nice for you all to remember it at this time of year

You guys at GWX (not to detract from your obvious achievements to date) seem a little tight over this one and by that I mean defensive beyond the point that would appear necessary in this case. So the guy mods something that changes your great work in a way you didn't intend, so what? Is that not what you've done to SHIII to a greater or lesser extent with the help and luxury of a lot of people to 'beta test'. I'm sure the original devs of SHIII could argue at a number of points in the past where modders have broken, sorry modded certain aspects of the original game which they did not intend as part of the finished product.
Lighten up guys, not everyone is an Uber Modder who has the time to create a 'mod to end all mods' (this is a misnomer as modders will always continue to mod), if something new or different works or if people like it then they'll use it, or not as the case may be.

Besides, I'm sure there was a topic on here a ways back that discussed that none of you actually own any of the material you have all worked so hard on; it belongs to the publisher of the game and as such getting peeved by (as an example off the top of my head) X1 Software re-releasing free community material in a format others have to pay for is annoying but if the publisher is happy then they had the right to do so. As an example I think that's an obvious one and I'm not sure I can see any real difference in this case. Therefore your ire at Carotio is a bit unfounded from a certain point of view.

You guys need to relax and remember that nobody here is ****ing on your mod. Why can no-one see this? After all most of you mod-types began to change the original game in new and unintended ways (according to its original developer published release) as soon as you got your hands on it and claiming it as 'my mod this' and 'my mod that'. Better to be flattered that somebody else likes your work enough to want to add to it or piggyback changes to it (that they conform to your original mod or fail to work in conjunction with it in some way is immaterial). Surely that is the essence and reward of community modding that keeps games like this alive and kicking well beyond their intended sell by date?
Take it on the chin guys as from where I'm sitting it does absolutely nothing to detract from your original intent and achievement despite what you may think. Anyone who resides here at subsim for any length of time will recognise this.

OK I understand some of your way of seeing this,
But i also see that you miss completely our point of view,
and in the half way you also don't get the some thing we are
trying to explain to him....:hmm:

One thing I didn't ever insulted him in any form...

Another cut the Part of the 'Christmas Spirit' thing just to get feelings involved
here and justifying The Means to reach an end...
'Christmas Spirit' as nothing to do with what we are stating here bro...

[VonHelsching]

You seem to be missing my points.

Let me ask the question again: Why do you think the GWX Dev Team is angry with you and not any other modder that made mods for GW or GWX?

Why?

I´m trying to help you understand. This has nothing to do with any mistake or your UA mods that "make" or "break" GWX.

Von

[jumpy]

It was merely an observation, nothing more.

Another cut the Part of the 'Christmas Spirit' thing just to get feelings involved
here and justifying The Means to reach an end... 'Christmas Spirit' as nothing to do with what we are stating here bro...

Ah well, perhaps you do not see it that way, but the confrontational tone of some of the posts does present it so.

It would seem that you chaps are miffed that he used your mod to make his own additions (a small point but not the main issue ->)where those additions might render some aspects of GWX inoperable for one reason or another and he seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of flak for doing so in the same spirit in which you all undertook to create your mod. He's not claiming GW/GWX as his own personal creation just like you lot are not claiming SHIII as your own personal creation. But one has to supercede the other to its end surely?
It looks more like a case of stepping on somebody's toes without expressly meaning to do so, there's no thunder to be stolen here surely? Is this something your team can afford to be a little magnanimous about, even flattered by, given the spectacular success of the most recent instalment of TGW?
Anyways, I've said my bit and I don't intend getting into an argument with anyone over this; it was my contention that some of the responses to this topic were a bit harsh considering the nature of the forum and its inhabitants and this thread.

[danlisa]

I don't want to fan any flames here as this is between the GWX Team & Carotio.

I assume that the issue here is one of politeness and courtesy.

You must ask for permission before using/altering anyone's files. Whether they end up in a release or not.

I remember when I made my first U-boat skin, I asked Fubar for his permission to use his skin as a base for mine. I waited day's for a reply, but he did reply with permission as long as there was correct aknowlegement to himself & the GW team where the skins were taken from.

It's professional courtesy.

If I'm way off the mark with this then I apologise and shall delete this post.

[The Munster]

jumpy ..quote .."Is that not what you've done to SHIII to a greater or lesser extent with the help and luxury of a lot of people to 'beta test'."

"luxury" ? That's a real 'headscratcher' and 'chinrubber' :hmm: that one !
We [the Beta-testers], felt it a privelage to be invited to do this and, I'm sure I can state on behalf of the other Beta-testers that we all thoroughly enjoyed the experience !

[JScones]

Originally Posted by jumpy

mmm that 'Christmas Spirit' is rearing its ugly head again, so nice for you all to remember it at this time of year

You guys at GWX (not to detract from your obvious achievements to date) seem a little tight over this one and by that I mean defensive beyond the point that would appear necessary in this case. So the guy mods something that changes your great work in a way you didn't intend, so what? Is that not what you've done to SHIII to a greater or lesser extent with the help and luxury of a lot of people to 'beta test'. I'm sure the original devs of SHIII could argue at a number of points in the past where modders have broken, sorry modded certain aspects of the original game which they did not intend as part of the finished product.
Lighten up guys, not everyone is an Uber Modder who has the time to create a 'mod to end all mods' (this is a misnomer as modders will always continue to mod), if something new or different works or if people like it then they'll use it, or not as the case may be.

Besides, I'm sure there was a topic on here a ways back that discussed that none of you actually own any of the material you have all worked so hard on; it belongs to the publisher of the game and as such getting peeved by (as an example off the top of my head) X1 Software re-releasing free community material in a format others have to pay for is annoying but if the publisher is happy then they had the right to do so. As an example I think that's an obvious one and I'm not sure I can see any real difference in this case. Therefore your ire at Carotio is a bit unfounded from a certain point of view.

You guys need to relax and remember that nobody here is ****ing on your mod. Why can no-one see this? After all most of you mod-types began to change the original game in new and unintended ways (according to its original developer published release) as soon as you got your hands on it and claiming it as 'my mod this' and 'my mod that'. Better to be flattered that somebody else likes your work enough to want to add to it or piggyback changes to it (that they conform to your original mod or fail to work in conjunction with it in some way is immaterial). Surely that is the essence and reward of community modding that keeps games like this alive and kicking well beyond their intended sell by date?
Take it on the chin guys as from where I'm sitting it does absolutely nothing to detract from your original intent and achievement despite what you may think. Anyone who resides here at subsim for any length of time will recognise this.

Quite logically correct. BUT this is not what I at least am saying (which is different to Von's very valid points btw).

I have no problem with anyone creating mods for GWX. Doesn't phase me in the slightest. If someone does an "undo", or an "easier gameplay" add-on, cool. It simply makes GWX accessible to more players.

But just think about what actually tends to happen here. "Someone" mods component x and in the process inadvertantly breaks component y. They don't realise this and release. It's not overly apparent that component y is related to component x, at least insofar as the player is concerned.

The player gets a CTD or some other random problem. So, what do they do? They post to the GWX thread "why does my GWX crash?". A GWX dev comes along and spends z amount of time trying to determine what the problem is, only to be told at some later date "oh yeah, forgot to say, I installed someone's mod, but he says it doesn't affect this part, so it must be GWX". No amount of disclaimers or other warnings will stop this from happening. However, CARE when creating GWX "compatible" mods will.

I am not talking knowingly breaking GWX or knowingly changing it in ways that weren't originally intended. Heck, I expect that to happen. And it already has. But let me ask; would you have guessed that an Axis Uruguayan ship in an Allied convoy was the result of this mod, or a GWX flub? And to this end, this is why Carotio has drawn the team's ire and not other GW or GWX modders.

Can you see it from the point of view of the GW devs, who have to ultimately support this stuff?

[JCWolf]

Originally Posted by jumpy

It was merely an observation, nothing more.

Ah well, perhaps you do not see it that way, but the confrontational tone of some of the posts does present it so.

It would seem that you chaps are miffed that he used your mod to make his own additions (a small point but not the main issue ->)where those additions might render some aspects of GWX inoperable for one reason or another and he seems to be getting a disproportionate amount of flak for doing so in the same spirit in which you all undertook to create your mod. He's not claiming GW/GWX as his own personal creation just like you lot are not claiming SHIII as your own personal creation. But one has to supercede the other to its end surely?
It looks more like a case of stepping on somebody's toes without expressly meaning to do so, there's no thunder to be stolen here surely? Is this something your team can afford to be a little magnanimous about, even flattered by, given the spectacular success of the most recent instalment of TGW?
Anyways, I've said my bit and I don't intend getting into an argument with anyone over this; it was my contention that some of the responses to this topic were a bit harsh considering the nature of the forum and its inhabitants and this thread.

I respect your opinion the same way as i respect
any opinion or What ever in this forum, bro...

But truthly this with Carotio goes way back in time...

You can reed this posted by KPT Lehnman:

I quote

"Furthermore, Carotio has in the past demonstrated an UNWILLINGNESS to properly credit the modders whose work is damaged in the process by failure to include the original documentation with his core file download... Also, by plastering his name all over the loading screen... can be said to pass the entirety of the work off as his own.

Carotio may make himself out to be a martyr swallowed up by the big bad grey wolves all he likes."



We didn't said this to any other Modders or Mod creations,
Some of the Team members worked more some others less but
sure we have the right to feel "GWX Raped Apart"and
sure the guy that wrote the Campaign have that right,
and sure the one that Made the graphics or, ships or
Damage model, or what ever, because if you add to that
Personal real life sacrifice and endeless hours of work
without sleeping and for after watching a guy coming and
in "Ten" minutes "Raping" all you've done...

Without any Permision to do so....

How would you feel?:hmm:

[Boris]

JScones is right. Technical support for GWX is hard enough when dealing with our own bugs and mistakes.

[CWorth]

I definately see where the GWX team is coming from...

If you are going to mod there work then

1. Get permission
2. Give proper credit where it is due
3. Check,double check,and if need be triple and quadruple check your work before release to make sure you did not screw up something else while you were fiddling with your tweaks.And if it does,you had best be be ready to change those items that it did break.For example removing ships from convoys that will be problematic due to your changes.

This is your job as the modder not anyone elses who downloads your mod.Modding like this does not entail a simple slap job change of a few numbers here and there and your ready to go.With a mod as complicated as GWX is and with as many changes the GWX team have made to the game any outside mod that changes part A will undoubtedly break part C,D and maybe E.So that will need to be dealth with by the modder who makes the mod.

And if said modder does not do this and claims all is well and works then the GWX team have to deal with all the questions on why does my GWX install not work when it is not the GWX teams problem but the problem of a modder who did not check his work and released a faulty mod.

[macky]

Group hug?

As an outsider to this argument, would it not be a good idea to put some sort of agreement process together? For example, I love GWX, but I dont want to use a mod that the GWX guys haven't said its ok and will not break thier mod! So if there is a mod I fancy, I scroll down to see if any of the mod team have commented (which is why I am here)

Now I know you guys worked hard on this mod and totally agree that someone should not take your work, change a few lines and then claim it as new. However, I also agree with the OP who states that changing a mod to do something slightly different is ok as long as the original modders have given permission.

So I would suggest that a process could be as simple as a mod is released and has quoted that the original modder/s (named of course) have okayed thier work to be used. If this goes in the standard 1st post then no need to scroll down looking for clues and walking into a cat fight :p