Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing Defense Secretary and other

[Safe-Keeper]

What a bunch of losers! Why not spend their money on something more constructive?

Getting war criminals jailed is not constructive and a "loser"'s endavour? Or are you talking about the futility of it? Or is it that only America has the right to interfere with the doings of other countries?

What's your real intent here?

WHile were at it, why do they think they can prosecute something that happened in two other countries, and not even in an EU country?

Subman1, meet 2006 C.E.

Two words: International Law. It's like the USA kidnapping "terrorist suspects" committing "crimes" outside of the USA and bringing them to secret camps (except it's legal, of course). Or on a different note, it's how, if you buy child sex in Thailand, you can face trial in Germany, England, or other countries for it upon your return to them. Or how the Hague can deem foreign acts illegal and try criminals.

Now, they most likely cannot get Rumsfeld to court, him being a "good guy" and all. However, he should be tried for his crimes, and he should be punished justly if found guilty. As a side note, let's not forget that one of the main neo-con arguments for Operation Iraqi Screw-Up was that Saddam had torture camps. If it's OK for you to illegally invade a sovereign country on the grounds of torture, surely by your own reasoning Germany is not out of line?

Look at it this way: Just like you, even though you're a free citizen, needs to follow your country's laws, the USA, even though it's a sovereign country, needs to follow International Law. Can I download child porn because I'm a "free citizen" and the government has no right to interfere with my private life? Of course not. I've got laws to follow. Likewise with the US of A.

Aye what a waste of money they have so many unemployed and they can still find time to fart around trying to send former members of the bush white house to prision. I think they should get there own house in order first before throwing stones.

Bollocks. They can perfectly well prosecute criminals and have a high level of unemployment at the same time. If the USA can somehow spend hundreds of billions of dollars on an illegal war with an economic deficit, the Germans can surely try a single criminal with a high level of unemployment.

The congress of the United State gave the President authority to use any means necessary to insure the security of the United States. International law has a whole lot of folks to prosecute.

[Skybird]

Thank you for leading me to this hypocritical hysteria, Phil.

"The plaintiffs in the case include 11 Iraqis who were prisoners at Abu Ghraib, as well as Mohammad al-Qahtani, a Saudi held at Guantanamo."

"Germany was chosen for the court filing because German law provides "universal jurisdiction" allowing for the prosecution of war crimes and related offenses that take place anywhere in the world. Indeed, a similar, but narrower, legal action was brought in Germany in 2004, which also sought the prosecution of Rumsfeld."

The state of Germany or the German people are not prosecuting anyone here. Germany is the scene of the action only. Like Germans or international citizens file their cases against companies sometimes at American courts when that gives them better chances for higher damage compensations.

Those Americans saying foreign people should not not stick their noses into other countries businesses (especially if it is US business) fail to see that this is what the US has excessively done in return in recent decades - and in the case of Iraq. And here it was no private enterprise, but official policy ordered by the highest representatives - like Rumsfeld.

German laws concerning this case refer to fundamental and inalienable human rights that are understood to be of general validity. Much like the US is claiming democratical American principles as being of general validity, and inalienable.

After all, it is the US rejecting the international court - not Germany, nor Europe.

Threads like this I do not miss. BTW, German online newspapers so far do not report a single word about it - I checked twelve newspaper and magazine sites.

Complain to Phil for my short visit - if you know what his avatar is

P.S. Just want to add that secretary or not, if the US can pontificate about rogue states and bad guys in other countires, than black sheep like Rumsfeld also should be held responsibole for the murderous mess they have created in Iraq - if for no other reason than unlimited arrogance and incompetence. Iraqui officials topday have said that their estimations of civilian deaths as a result of the war now vary in the range between 100 and 150 thousand. That surely is a good reason to have a closer look into those heads that brew this plot. Laws should work both ways. not only from the US to others, but eventually also the other way around. That is a principal truth that is not being chaned by the possebility that this court file maybe is just a pro-Jihaddist propaganda coup.

[fredbass]

Well I knew Skybird would have to interject in this thread.

As far as I can tell, the reports have shown that what happened at the prisons were very minor. I know I wouldn't believe most of what those 11 Iraqis are saying.

If they want to sue somebody, maybe it should be the Iraq Government, because as the U.S. is handing over control to them, we're beginning to see what really can happen to prisoners. It's called real torture and death. Those 11 are lucky that we were in charge at the time and not the Iraqis.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thank you for leading me to this hypocritical hysteria, Phil.

LOL. Skybird gives us a dramatic farewell only to walk out the front door and camp out in the front yard. Poking his nose in the front door from time to time, pretending that it's some friend that keeps bringing him back. I't OK Sky, just admit you never intended to leave. We won't poke too much fun. Nice to have you back. I knew it. Subsim is just too good of a place to leave...isn't it?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=100154

But on the topic , guess what guys. Nothing will come of this. Germany's very survival is at stake, and this is what they worry about? What a bunch of dolts. Germany's own house is coming crumbling down around them. Who they gonna call when they need their rear-ends pulled out of the fire? You know it's coming. They make few babies, and their Muslim population is extremely fertile and booming. Oh yes, it's coming. Does anybody really think Germany has any power to effect any of this? What a waste of time on their part.

The state of Germany or the German people are not prosecuting anyone here. Germany is the scene of the action only.

So what you are saying is that German court gives them standing where no other court would. And that it means nothing, except of course that the German peoplle have to pay for it.

Regarding human rights, Germans should check their not too distant history. They are are in no position to judge on that particular issue.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by waste gate

So what you are saying is that German court gives them standing where no other court would. And that it means nothing, except of course that the German peoplle have to pay for it.

Regarding human rights, Germans should check their not too distant history. They are are in no position to judge on that particular issue.

Wastegate, I think this is all symbolic BS. Which means it's a total waste of time, but it makes anti-American people in Europe feel good.

[DAB]

First of all thanks to Ducimus for correctly interpretating my yawn! To beSpecific, I didn't understand the reason for the thread. These sort of things happen every other day around the world and its very unusual for anything to come of them. (I'm trying to remember the number of cases in the UK courts where they are trying to indite Blair for War Crimes.) The other reason for the "Yawn" is where the hell are all these references to the EU coming from. The EU is a glorified version of NAFTA. NAFTA doesn't have a criminal justice system, why the hell would the EU as currently constituted have one!?

The only thing actually worthy of notice here is the concept of Universal Jurisdiction. Its a relatively new concept in International Law, but it is one that is accepted among most countries (including the USA). Certain crimes are at the discression of courts in other sovereign states. They tend to include the Jus Cogans of Genocide and Crimes against Hummanity.

Was the conduct of the US administration legally dubious? Of course, any lawyer would say so. Does the conduct of members of the US administration come under the perview of the ICC or countries exercising Universal Jurisdiction. I think not.

Originally Posted by fredbass

As far as I can tell, the reports have shown that what happened at the prisons were very minor. I know I wouldn't believe most of what those 11 Iraqis are saying.

I've never come across any such report, and certainly thats not what the reports I've seen have to say on Abu Grave. I would be keen to see them if you remember where they are? If not, anything that could go into a google keyword search would be useful.

[Skybird]

Just for the record - I am still in regular email contact with three members of this board. This is the second thread they told me of, thinking I might find it interesting.

The forum headline overview is still my browser's starting page, like it has been for the past years, with interruptions. seen that way, I am logging in several times a day. And occasionally take note of this or that headline, yes - 7 year long habit. But I do not read it all anymore, and don't feel interested to write. I also do not have the time, currently.

Amongst other reasons, some of which have to do with my private life, and some have to do with this board (it came all together in time), some of the very insulting postings in this thread and especially the stupid and oh so stereotypic reply by Waste Gate is exemplary for one of these reasons that made me feel it was time to leave here.

SD may think he can read my mind. He can't.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Skybird

SD may think he can read my mind. He can't.

No. But you're the one that gave us a "drama queen" styled "good-bye" just a few days ago, and here you are. Normally when people do that, they leave. Glad to see you're not gone though. I just don't know why people have to grandstand like that only to look disingenuous later. There's really no reason to leave a good forum like this. I just find that thread you made funny, considering you won't leave now. I am not mocking you. I'm just having some friendly fun at your expense. But it's good, because it sucks to see people go.

[ASWnut101]

at least he's not a sir-big-jugs style! welcome back AND goodbye to whenever you go 'inactive'

[Dan D]

[QUOTE=waste gate]“Germany will seek a criminal prosecution of the outgoing Defense Secretary and other”

is pure speculation.
You seem to think that you can read the mind of the German Federal Prosecutor or that there is already sufficient suspicion against Rumsfeld to justify a prosecution to the IC Court in Den Hague. There was no investigation against Rumsfeld yet.

I think the intense “Germany going after Rumsfeld” opinion pieces which are obviously written for the audience at home in the US have to be seen in the context of the controversial Military Commission Act which is actually big news in America because the Congress has made use of its power to limit the jurisdiction of the judicial branch. Actions to limit court review are always controversial and get challenged. This is only the warm up phase to a heated debate within America.

The plaintiffs are Iraqis who are supported by an American NGO (Center for Constitutional Rights), not Germany.
Those plaintiffs want the German Federal Prosecutor to investigate and to open a prosecution against Rumsfeld. Plaintiff and prosecutor are not the same.

But why do they bother German authorities with their complaint and not the ones at home?
As things are seen today, every nation has universal jurisdiction to go after war criminals if the home country refuses to do so.
The German International Crime code has a subsidiary clause: German authorities will open a prosecution on war crimes only if the home country is “unable or unwilling” to do so.
(The first ICC trial ever started this year. A warlord from “unable” Congo is prosecuted for crimes against humanity (children soldiers etc.).

With regard to Rumsfeld this means it is America’s turn first to investigate him. If they do and find nothing fishy about him, there is no room for own investigations by German authorities.
This is actually the second complaint filed against Rumsfeld in Germany. Back then the German Federal Prosecutor temporarily dismissed to open investigations against Rumsfeld because he (now it is a “she”) thought that America is “willing” to investigate Rumsfeld which is their very own job actually because he is American.

The Iraqi plaintiffs and the supporting American NGO who now filed the second complaint seem to think that it now has become undisputable that a serious investigation is not going to happen in America. Again, I think this has to do with the recent legislation (Military Commission Act). Critics of the MCA say that this act is granting retroactive immunity from prosecution for torture war crimes and also say that it has cancelled appeals jurisdiction over war-on-terror cases. The American NGO is targeting the MCA.

My speculation is that there will be another temporary dismissal by the German Federal Prosecutor because it is still open whether American authorities and courts will deal with allegations against Rumsfeld. The US has a Constitution and the MCA is inferior in rank to that Constitution. The US Supreme Court will have a say on the legal approach of the Bush administration towards terrorism. The German FP won’t anticipate the Supreme Court's decision, out of respect and because who other than the US Supreme Court in its wisdom could be more competent to answer the constitutional questions involved.

I for one have full trust in the integrity of the American legal system, you don't?, and so I find speculations that Germany will prosecute Rumsfeld rather funny or what?
Who would be investigating Rumsfeld btw? Mr. Gonzales?

If there will be an investigation about whether US officials have authorised torture crimes or whether it was just a few "bad apples" who acted on own commitment by whoever, this is going to be interesting because German security services were involved too, e.g. they have interrogated German terror suspects at GTMO and have been accused of using torture as well. They also had knowledge about the CIA kidnapping German citizens and have backed it.

Grabbing sugared popcorn here.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

at least he's not a sir-big-jugs style! welcome back AND goodbye to whenever you go 'inactive'

....and don't forget, asking a for a new name/avatar after each inactive