Cold-War Era SH5

[Crimguy]

WW I would be cool and different. There is another WW I sim coming out soon, but it looks a bit dinky.

I'd like WW II with the full enchilada. Choice of nationality, including British, US, Dutch, Japanese, German, Italian, etc. Choice of driving either a SS or DD. Option of piloting a B-24 would be icing on the cake.

Some day I hope to see the MMORPG style, where you pop into a persistent world with all of the above and more. PC Gamer had an article 7-8 years ago about a Jane's project that promised just that, but got canned.

Modern subs are great btw. Problem with DW in my opinion is the built in campaign sucked, and the tutorials were lacking. I just loaded it again for the first time since release, and am really enjoying tooling around in an FFG.

[Hartmann]

DW could be very different and better with a full dinamic campaign with scripted events, and better graphics like SH4.

[Julhelm]

DW, being the de-facto simulator it is, is much too technically complex and dare I say, realistic to be much fun even with a dynamic campaign. Now the optimal cold-war subsim in my opinion would be something like Fast Attack meets Red Storm Rising with SH4-grade visuals.

Fast Attack manages to be very realistic and accurate whilst at the same time having enough furious action so as not to make you bored, while on the other hand RSR's strength lies in it's setting and excellent dynamic campaign where updates are made in a stylish CNN-style newsreport that I for one feel really helps the atmosphere convey the fact there's a war brewing. It also had a much better selection of subs than any of the Sonalysts sims, going all the way from the Permit to Seawolf.

So to sum things up:

FA had accuracy and realism along with stylish (Imagine the FA cutscenes done with the SH4 engine in a dynamic realtime world instead of being prerendered!) action while RSR has a great campaign, good selection of subs and soviet units, great setting and stylish atmosphere - All of which DW lacks in favor of slavishly sterile technical accuracy.

For all intents and purposes, the hypothetical conventional WW3 in the atlantic between NATO and WP is the ultimate "what-if" and would surely make a good game.

[U-96]

Hmmmmm, An interesting idea, but the problem with the cold war was that it was all exercises and spy missions there was no open hostility. Also the subs of the time were more complex but also boring. As the combat (If there was any) would be all by computer.

That's what makes the WWII era so successful for simulators. It was the right mix of simplicity and technology. There were no computers (At least any with a CPU) and also there were open hostilities so shots were fired, offense action was taken, etc.

I for one prefer the simplicity of the time of WWII, And staying there would be alot more interesting then moving towards a more modern setting. It was the pinnacle of warfare. Technologically significant yet still somewhat basic. (You needed to see your enemy at least in order to kill him) As opposed to it all being blips on a screen and a red button to make it go away. Also there is a certain charm with Diesel subs, being able to be submerged 24/7 from start to finish seems rather boring to me.

What would be interesting for SHV would be sailing under the Japanese flag this time, (The forgotten power of WWII it seems)

[Julhelm]

Originally Posted by U-96

Hmmmmm, An interesting idea, but the problem with the cold war was that it was all exercises and spy missions there was no open hostility.

But that's the greatness of the what-if cold war-gone-hot setting! Historical accuracy in itself is no prerequisite for realism whatsoever. Also, keep in mind that sometimes it can be more rewarding to explore that which never happened but could have compared to that which did and where we already know the outcome.

For all intents and purposes, any game set in a real conflict such as ww2 (with the possible exception of SWOTL) is essentially a canned scenario where you have exactly zero chances to change the eventual outcome. In essence the only way for you to lose is to die and even if you do, your side wins by default anyway.

A WW3 in the atlantic scenario on the other hand, such as the one described in Red Storm Rising, avoids this obvious limitation to gameplay completely by virtue of being very open-ended as to who wins the overall conflict. In fact, one of the really great things about Sid Meier's design was that simply surviving in itself wouldn't result in automatic victory, compelling you to go that extra bit above and beyond to make a real difference. And RSR is only one possible scenario that is plausible.

Also the subs of the time were more complex but also boring. As the combat (If there was any) would be all by computer.

Aircraft of the time were also more complex than their WW2 counterparts as well, but would anyone say the combat was more boring and done all by computer?

Ask any pilot from the Vietnam or Falklands wars about their opinions.

The technology is only there to assist the man; it doesn't make his decisions for him. Therefore it has been, is and always will be the man who has to make the decisions and face the consequences thereof.

[frigokar]

They could say that the USA and Soviet Union developed SDI lasers and Anti Ballistic Missile capabilities so we can play as an attack sub or boomer. If we play with boomer the objective is to get close and fire nukes at US/Soviet cities and if we play as an attack sub to objective is to prevent the enemy to get close.
I personaly think it would be great. Lots of tension and apocalyptic atmosphere

[tonibamestre]

That would be ok,to be able to command a boomer and a fast attack submarine from each side.An online H24 dedicated server would be nice also,just like VATSIM or IVAO networks do with FS.
Further addons and expansions could complete the fleets and bring systems and weapons updated to the upcoming years,decades.

[odjig292]

I'm coming into this forum late, but I think you have overlooked the excitement of playing for the Russian side. Everyone has assumed that we would be playing for countries like Britian or the US with submarines that work. No, no! You don't have to go around pretending to be a hole in the water with an Akula or even an Oscar II. You have other things to keep you busy.

Think of the fun of trying to sneak up on a US Carrier group with a noisy reactor that can be picked up five miles away. Fortunately they only drop grenades over the side when they get you in their sights, but the mods might add the fun of trying to avoid a MK-52 to add some lively maneuvres to make the scenarios more exciting.

Imagine the fun of playing "Crazy Ivan" while being tracked as soon as you leave harbor. Add the excitement of having the reactor going critical and having to send men in to re-route the drinking water to be used for make-up water for the reactor. The graphics of watching the crew's skin peel off because of the radiation would be really unique. You usually only get good stuff like that in FPS's.!

Another scenario is being on an Oscar II and testing the new rocket powered torpedo. SH4 finally has the graphics to show the fireball blowing out the doors as it explodes from the torpedo room into the sixth compartment. Then you have the fun of being one of the 32 survivors that make it into the stern and wait for Uncle Ivan to save you. You can't use TC in this part of the game, and have to sit in the dark for three days to get the full realism of the game.

Somehow, I don't think it will be a best seller.

[Zachstar]

To be honest I am quite disappointed with how this topic seems to be going and the mindset of quite a few posters here.

It is QUITE obvious that a historically accurate early-mid Cold War era navy simulator will completely fail due to the simple reason of no real action whatsoever. Yet people still want to bring it up. Why? Because the thought of moving away from 4 simulations and mods of World War 2 is too much? YES you have to throw historacally accurate right out the window.

It is time for new ideas. People are tired of choosing either WW2 or Modern with subpar graphics. The whole idea of the industry is to provide new and interesting software for people to entertain themselves with.

World War 1 is NOT enough. The only difference is that the hard difficulty will be extreme and you stand a greater chance of being blasted by what you thought was a transport.

Cold War era offers a chance of blending the experimental tech (Homing torpedoes) of SH3 and SH4 and offering other new technologies without having to plunge headfirst into modern day naval action. Such a phase in the development of the modern Navy offers a COMPLETELY new gameplay style that tests the nerves of even the biggest vets of SH3 and SH4.

A repost from a topic a bit ago.

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My thoughts on this have been settled for QUITE some time.

Silent Hunter 5 has a small nitch it can cover with the 50's Sub simulation being totally nonused.

Im thinking give a few years for the postwar era stuff to go then suddenly in 1952 a conflict starts in the pacific or atlantic and a massive naval conventional war ensues between the United States and Soviet Union.
So between 1952 and 1958 you have this conflict that uses newly captured or developed technologies in a deadly war to deny access to the sea.

Light Submarine combat with the use of new homing torpedoes that may or may not work.

Light missile use. Mostly against aircraft.

Soviet XXI conversions such as Whiskey and Zulu for early war

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_class_submarine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zulu_class_submarine

For the Americans you have your choice of GUPPY classes for early war leading to better designed subs later on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater..._Power_Program

By 1955 I think its safe to start seeing large number of teardrop shape submarines to start the hunt. Such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Barbel_%28SS-580%29


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The point of this is to still be able to basicly maintain the art of Silent Hunter and yet change the style somewhat without going to Nuke powered monsters with uber missiles and Mach 1 torpedoes. You can hunt other submarines underwater and try to engage with homing torpedoes.. etc.

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[Zachstar]

Moving on to a new post to prevent wall of test effect.

Obviously my repost did not highlight the scope of such a form of naval warfare.

Homing torpedoes were just coming into play. Both sides with captured german technology and plans. New and better aircraft starting to use jet engines.

The scene was set for a terrifying conventional naval war. Think about it.

A week after the war starts you take your Guppy enhanced submarine into the pacific to hunt killer soviet XXI enhanced submarines. To use radar will alert the sub to your presence allowing him to sit and wait for you. So it is he who can hear the other charging his batteries that is granted the initial offensive.

This time you have lost...

The submarine dives deep with batteries mostly full. He cuts the electric motors and makes his boat completely silent. Waiting to hear you approach. He is rewarded when he hears the light hum of your craft granting him time to calculate his initial shot. By the time you hear the torpedo fire you are too late. You quickly snapshot a homing torpedo his way to drive him off and dive. Deploying as many tactics as you can to avoid the torpedo that only spares you because its trigger has failed. Sending a jarring scream throughout your boat as it passes.

There is no stealth here. Both subs are far too close to hope the silent treatment will work on their WW2 style hulls. A fierce exchange starts with both subs having to move fast, desperate to move out of range of the homing torpedoes and the death they spell. Finally one of your torpedoes has found its mark sending the killer soviet submarine to the bottom where it will no longer pose a threat to the pacific fleet.

Your batteries are at half and you need to rise to charge them. Just as you prepare to start the engines you detect soviet radar. There is no rest as the soviet destroyer bears down on you with accurate depth charges and homing torpedoes.

Without nuclear power SH5 becomes a game of survival and not just another sim that requires a college course for realism sake. SH5 is about terror of major proportions as you now have to deal with deadlier threats that do not let up and usually require destruction to save yourself. There is no "Black-Hole" of old Hydrophones or the Kilo class of the 90s. SH5 is about sudden actions and trying to damage the enemy under extreme conditions.

There is nothing boring about Alt History cold war sim.

[Torps]

At this point the best thing would be SH5 World at war, WWII, Incorporating naval warfare (Great Naval Battles, Janes etc ship vs ship etc) and subs into one giant WWII sim. You can command a sub or a battleship or whatever you want, it would be great for a large audience. You could be the Japanese, Brits, Germans, Americans whoever and that would not only sell but it would be a nice climax for SH series to go into the Cold War era. That would prodice a great sim not just for us sub guys but for those seeking naval warfare aswell.

[scrag]

The idea of Silent Hunter series is to be guess what - you command a submarine. No matter what we think the games do a fairly good job at this. Incorporating the ability to command slimmers and bugs (planes) significantly alters the whole precept of the game - and we could call it Harpoon or Semi Dangerous Waters.

- A Hot War Sub sim is not really feasible (accuracy wise) - playing the Russians are a must - the single biggest issue is that so far imho is - that all the previous games that dealt with the topic are extremely inaccurate and really SUCK. Name it - they all are so wrong that it would be better to play battleship. Not sure how to get around it simply put there is not enough unclass info to make a decent go at it.
It would be cool though if there was - pretty sure that this fan base would enjoy it alot. Imagine getting targeting data and coordinating an attack with Naval Air and the Red Banner Northern Fleet with you in charge of an OSCAR II SSGN??? Be cool - maybe in 20 years.

[Charlielima]

I think it would be splendid to patrol a choke point in a Guppy, Barbel, or Tango boat in this sim in the cold war and get the word to go weapons free. V/R, CL

[Zachstar]

Why do people assume that SH5-Cold War automatically means 70-90s? That is what DW is for.

50-60 is where you get the rapid progression. The lack of more advanced sensor equipment. And the more World War II like fights. (Except with homing torpedoes)

Anything later means nucs and the DW like stuff.

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[scrag]

Time line for discussion (yes I left off US/NATO SS, UK and US SS)
In this time line some significant events happen:
SSG/SSGN - is no longer a one off it is operational using ASCM's between 180 - 300 NM
SSBN - Subs become capital ships
Nuclear Weapons - yep every one thought Nuclear ASW was cool and worse still very feasible at sea - so add ASROC, Nuclear torps, ASCM as well as MPA dropped ordinance. If you do not think a war at sea in this era would not go nuclear you are wrong - it would and was planned to do so. Remember the point of this was to protect Europe from the Reds - to do this we had to resupply Europe the Russians knew this and to win the had to prevent it - you figure it out from there.
Sensors???? Radar see some improvements, Sonar as well but not as significant as you might think - this time frame was revolutionary from a Propulsion and Weapon standpoint - so if the balloon goes up in say 57 we are going to kill Soviets like nuts driving around blind at 25 knots waiting for a nuke to go off. Remember Nautilus totally dominated any exercise that she participated in against the skimmers - even today we hamstring our boats so bad that reality leaves the building - it so bad that the limit the depth, speed and often force the boats to do things that they will not do in a real fight - simply to offer a chance to the skimmers and bugs to make them feel better about themselves - it is that lopsided. There has NEVER been an exercise that said Gloves off let see what you bring to the table and have it single elimination - no "regen".
So a game in this time frame would be significantly different than you might think.
Nautilus - 1954
Seawolf - 1957
Skate Class - 1957 -59
Triton - 1959
Skipjack 1959 - 1961
Halibut - 1960
Tulibee - 1960
Permit - 1962 - 1967
Sturgeon 1967 - 1975
The George Washington was 1959 and the rest of the 41 for freedom in the same era.
The Soviets
Whiskey 1951 - 1957
Quebec 1954 - 1957
November 1959 - 1964
Echo I SSGN - 1960 - 1962
Echo II SSGN - 1962 - 1967
Hotel SSBN - 1959 - 1962 (K-19)
Victor I 1967 - 1974