2016 US Presidential election thread - Page 170

u crank · 08-14-16, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

Trump is in this because a good portion of the country view the current crop of regular politicians as traitors who have sold the best thing that's ever existed out to global concerns.

I'm really surprised that those same people would view Trump as being any different than the regular politicians. Even the slightest investigation would have shown that Trump is exactly like them. He's just not a politician. Yet.

Platapus · 08-14-16, 08:37 AM

In the United States, anyone can grow up to be President.

That is just one of the risks we have to accept.

u crank · 08-14-16, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

In the United States, any rich person can grow up to be President.

Fixed that for you.

Torplexed · 08-14-16, 11:00 AM

This whole freak show of an election feels like an indictment on our society. That we, as a people are either indolent or reckless enough to allow either of the two major cartoon characters running to represent America to the rest of the world.

Platapus · 08-14-16, 12:51 PM

The Founding Dudes warned us about political parties. Seems like they knew what they were writing about.

I don't think there is a way for the US to get away from all political parties. After all, while there is nothing mandating political parties, they are also legal so we can't just say stop.

Perhaps the solution is to have more political parties? Well, depending on the election we have as many as 15 political parties, most of which the citizens never hear about. More is not the solution, size is.

Can we expect the other 13 political parties to come together and form one large third party that can stand a chance against the big two? Probably not.

Another barrier is the way the electoral college votes are handled. A candidate needs a majority of the electoral votes to be elected president. With two political parties, this becomes pretty straightforward -- Take the total number of electoral votes (538) and divide by 2 (269) and add 1 for a majority of 270. Since in a two party race, it is impossible for both candidates to get a majority, the winner is pretty clear. It does not matter if you get 270 or 538, it is the same result.

If we add in other parties of significant size, this can complicate matters. It has not complicated them so far as it was in 1972 that the Libertarian party candidate got 1 electoral vote. Since then no other political party has gotten any electoral votes. Why?

Because in 48 states, the electoral college is an all or nothing. That means that if a third party gets 49% of the popular vote in one of these 48 states, that political party gets nothing! That's fair and representative.

Two states (Nebraska and Maine) have proportional voting when it comes to the electoral college. This is why Nebraska and Maine get two electoral ballots. There is much to be said about proportional voting in the Electoral College. But, there are drawbacks too.

What happens if, either due to proportional voting (if it becomes the norm) or a significant competing third party results in no single candidate garnering a simple majority of the electoral vote?

Well, the House of Representatives votes for President among the top five candidates. Now does anyone think that the members of the House would not cast their votes according to their political party? It is most likely that which ever party holds a majority in the House would be the party to select the President. What do you think the chances of a third party being selected are? I think I can round that up to zero.

Until Article 2 is amended to change the way we elect presidents, I am afraid that the system is heavily weighted in favour of two political parties.

Who can change the constitution? Well congress can. The same congress that is overwhelmingly populated with members of one of two political parties. The same political parties that really don't want a change from the practically two party state we are living in. What are the chances that either the Democrats and the Republicans will ever vote to make it easier for a third party to unseat them? I think that may be the only thing that Republicans and Democrats agree on -- the two party system.

Of course there is the fantasy that 2/3rds of the individual state legislators would call a constitutional convention but in the history of our nation this has never been done.

The sad news is that we seem to be stuck with the two party system. Congress is not going to help us as it is in their best interest to maintain the two party system. It is doubtful that the state legislators could ever agree to hold a convention, especially when it takes 3/4 of the states (38) to agree.

Yes it is depressing.

Betonov · 08-14-16, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

Perhaps the solution is to have more political parties? Well, depending on the election we have as many as 15 political parties, most of which the citizens never hear about. More is not the solution, size is.

Nope. We have a multi-party system and at the end we just recycle vultures that change color. Not to mention even more time is wasted in inside party dealings on how MP's will vote.

Platapus · 08-14-16, 01:47 PM

Not to mention that culturally, the US might have a problem with coalition governments. All that compromise and cooperation. BAH.

We like our "us vs them" system far too much.

Betonov · 08-14-16, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

We like our "us vs them" system far too much.

Not any different here.
It's all the left parties vs the ''right'' parties. Neverending game of which opposition can cause the most damamge to the coalition, before the coalition parties manago to plunder anything that might be plundered after the elections.

August · 08-14-16, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought

Trump is in this because a good portion of the country view the current crop of regular politicians as traitors who have sold the best thing that's ever existed out to global concerns.

This ^

u crank · 08-14-16, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

This ^

I understand that part of Trumps appeal is a protest against the current political system and its corruption. What I don't understand is what his supporters think he can do about it as President. So I'll ask that question. What can he do about it?

mapuc · 08-14-16, 05:57 PM

I said the same some days or some weeks ago, what can Trump do, if he has a majority against him in the Congress and in the Senate

I don't think people are thinking about these things

Markus

Buddahaid · 08-14-16, 06:11 PM

Piss the whole world off by being uncouth and the poster boy for the ugly American.

Hold his breath until he turns blue.

Not eat his vegetables.

Learn how to lay bricks. I mean somebody has to build the wall.

And just maybe, get the GOP to reset.

"Weakness on both sides is, as we know, the motto of all quarrels."
Voltaire

em2nought · 08-14-16, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

I said the same some days or some weeks ago, what can Trump do
Markus

Just the fact that he was able to get to where he is can give conservatives this

u crank · 08-14-16, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

And just maybe, get the GOP to reset.

Bingo. Give that man a cigar.

August · 08-14-16, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by u crank

I understand that part of Trumps appeal is a protest against the current political system and its corruption. What I don't understand is what his supporters think he can do about it as President. So I'll ask that question. What can he do about it?

Well maybe not much as the system is well entrenched and it controls the media but certainly more than a candidate who is the ultimate insider. Personally I prefer an outsider a bit less, well Trump, but if he disrupts the system I could live with his personal failings.

08-14-16, 08:37 AM	#2537
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,995 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	In the United States, anyone can grow up to be President. That is just one of the risks we have to accept. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-14-16, 11:00 AM	#2539
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	This whole freak show of an election feels like an indictment on our society. That we, as a people are either indolent or reckless enough to allow either of the two major cartoon characters running to represent America to the rest of the world. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

08-14-16, 12:51 PM	#2540
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,995 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	The Founding Dudes warned us about political parties. Seems like they knew what they were writing about. I don't think there is a way for the US to get away from all political parties. After all, while there is nothing mandating political parties, they are also legal so we can't just say stop. Perhaps the solution is to have more political parties? Well, depending on the election we have as many as 15 political parties, most of which the citizens never hear about. More is not the solution, size is. Can we expect the other 13 political parties to come together and form one large third party that can stand a chance against the big two? Probably not. Another barrier is the way the electoral college votes are handled. A candidate needs a majority of the electoral votes to be elected president. With two political parties, this becomes pretty straightforward -- Take the total number of electoral votes (538) and divide by 2 (269) and add 1 for a majority of 270. Since in a two party race, it is impossible for both candidates to get a majority, the winner is pretty clear. It does not matter if you get 270 or 538, it is the same result. If we add in other parties of significant size, this can complicate matters. It has not complicated them so far as it was in 1972 that the Libertarian party candidate got 1 electoral vote. Since then no other political party has gotten any electoral votes. Why? Because in 48 states, the electoral college is an all or nothing. That means that if a third party gets 49% of the popular vote in one of these 48 states, that political party gets nothing! That's fair and representative. Two states (Nebraska and Maine) have proportional voting when it comes to the electoral college. This is why Nebraska and Maine get two electoral ballots. There is much to be said about proportional voting in the Electoral College. But, there are drawbacks too. What happens if, either due to proportional voting (if it becomes the norm) or a significant competing third party results in no single candidate garnering a simple majority of the electoral vote? Well, the House of Representatives votes for President among the top five candidates. Now does anyone think that the members of the House would not cast their votes according to their political party? It is most likely that which ever party holds a majority in the House would be the party to select the President. What do you think the chances of a third party being selected are? I think I can round that up to zero. Until Article 2 is amended to change the way we elect presidents, I am afraid that the system is heavily weighted in favour of two political parties. Who can change the constitution? Well congress can. The same congress that is overwhelmingly populated with members of one of two political parties. The same political parties that really don't want a change from the practically two party state we are living in. What are the chances that either the Democrats and the Republicans will ever vote to make it easier for a third party to unseat them? I think that may be the only thing that Republicans and Democrats agree on -- the two party system. Of course there is the fantasy that 2/3rds of the individual state legislators would call a constitutional convention but in the history of our nation this has never been done. The sad news is that we seem to be stuck with the two party system. Congress is not going to help us as it is in their best interest to maintain the two party system. It is doubtful that the state legislators could ever agree to hold a convention, especially when it takes 3/4 of the states (38) to agree. Yes it is depressing. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-14-16, 01:47 PM	#2542
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 18,995 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	Not to mention that culturally, the US might have a problem with coalition governments. All that compromise and cooperation. BAH. We like our "us vs them" system far too much. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

08-14-16, 06:11 PM	#2547
Buddahaid Shark above Space Chicken Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 8,577 Downloads: 160 Uploads: 0	Piss the whole world off by being uncouth and the poster boy for the ugly American. Hold his breath until he turns blue. Not eat his vegetables. Learn how to lay bricks. I mean somebody has to build the wall. And just maybe, get the GOP to reset. "Weakness on both sides is, as we know, the motto of all quarrels." Voltaire __________________ "However vast the darkness, we must provide our own light." Stanley Kubrick "Tomorrow belongs to those who can hear it coming." David Bowie

08-14-16, 05:57 PM	#2546
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,232 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	I said the same some days or some weeks ago, what can Trump do, if he has a majority against him in the Congress and in the Senate I don't think people are thinking about these things Markus