Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[August]

Originally Posted by CCIP

It also seems a little facetious to point at Russia's alleged military buildup when the US spends more on military than everyone else in the world combined. Doesn't that logic make the US the most dangerous state in the world?

What do you think? How much foreign territory have we annexed since the 19th century?

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by August

What do you think? How much foreign territory have we annexed since the 19th century?

To be fair, how much has Russia? Russian territory is significantly smaller today than it had been since the 19th century; Crimea was Russian territory until 1954. I'll even concede that one, but what other annexations do you have in mind? Russia voluntarily ceded significant territories formerly under its control to states such as Ukraine and Kazakhstan over the course of the 20th century. It withdrew back to its borders and honoured agreements with NATO vis-a-vis military presence in Europe. Throughout the 1990s and early 2000s, it made significant concessions to autonomy and self-governance for a number of its federal subjects (i.e. the various ethnic republics). So I'm not sure your point there stands, and it is certainly not supported by historical fact, regardless of what I think of the current regime.

Meanwhile the US had made extensive annexations of territory from the late 1800s through the year 1900, annexing Hawaii, followed by Puerto Rico and other Spanish territories like Guam, and de-facto annexing (and continuing to be involved in the affairs of) Cuba and the Phillippines. In some of these territories, popular referendums in the 20th century showed majority significant support to secede from the US and were vetoed by congress. And when Cuba's regime change occurred, we had the Bay of Pigs. And that's far from the only example of interference.

Anyway, I was just making a case in point there and this is rhetorical. No, I don't think the US is "the most dangerous country in the world", it's just that the logic really doesn't hold up as regards Russia, especially when its military is reducing in size and seems to be on track to phasing out conscription and writing off vast numbers of old equipment. Russia learned plenty from the conflicts in the 90s militarily, and that - not a sudden change in geopolitical goals - is what spurns the military spending and gradual doctrine change. They're largely over the whole "human wave" thing at this point and are in the process of writing off a lot of outdated equipment and scaling down manpower.

[donna52522]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Doesn't that logic make the US the most dangerous state in the world?

Which State are you talking about? We have 50, though many claim DC and Puerto Rico which would make it 52......I stick with 50

[CCIP]

And just to clarify my position for the hundredth time: I'm not trying to excuse Russian involvement and Putin is very clearly wrong here. But he's not wrong because of some kind of pathological Russian badness or a master plan to take over the world. He's wrong because he's taking advantage of turmoil to shore up his own regime, disregarding principles of civil constitutional democracy, humanitarian values, and international law. Yes, he should be stopped, by adequate and reasonable response that respects civil principles and human rights. Escalating a war is not that response.

You know who else has taken advantage of turmoil, disrespected principles of civil constitutional democracy, has escalated violence, used extensive propaganda, and has lied through their teeth about much in this situation? The current Ukrainian regime.

Two rights don't make a wrong. Two lies don't make a truth. One doesn't have to be for something just because they're against its opposite. There are still better solutions to this conflict than escalating it. But the western rhetoric is increasingly turning into some sort of exercise in self-righteous BS about saving Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine it's pretty screwed up - thanks for noticing after two decades. Could've done something about it earlier.

[ikalugin]

On the Armed Forces modernisation, it truly began post 080808 war, even though it's origins were in earlier events. It was conducted in two stages, a good book regarding the origins of the reform and the first stage of it could be found here in english:
http://www.cast.ru/eng/book/
It went in two directions:
- arms procurement. Those were/are/will be completed under two programs, GPV2015 (procurement by 2015) and more ambitious GPV2020 (procurement by 2020). Wiki articles (in Russian) provide an adequate overview:

 

https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A0%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%B9%D1%81%D0%BA%D 0%B0%D1%8F_%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B4%D0%B0%D1 %80%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%8 F_%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BC %D0%B0_%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8% D1%8F_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B5%D 0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BD%D0%B0_2007%E2%80%942015_%D 0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B4%D1%8B
https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%...BE%D0%B4%D1%8B

The other direction was the change of the Armed Forces structure, which is primary concerned with:
- optimising command structure by removing redundant commands. During the first part of the reform we have formed Brigades, which were kept at wartime strength all the time, rather than the divisions kept at cadre strength. Now we appear to be expanding the Armed Forces by increasing the units (adding new battalions to VDV divisions, expanding regiments into brigades and brigades into divisions) and by forming new ones (in south-western and northern directions).
- increasing the proportion of professionals across the Armed Forces (and not just in the select elite units), decreasing the amount of conscripts (while maintaining the amount of people conscripted we have decreased the conscription terms).
- improving terms of service (hot showers in all of baracks, laundry machines, better uniforms, higher pay, ect).

[ikalugin]

It appears that the separatists managed to capture the last counter battery radar that US has supplied Ukrainian loyalists.

 

Hence why I think that supplying more such systems would lead to just embaracing losses and not actual increase in capability.

[Oberon]

If I had to guess I'd say that the procurement process probably started in the aftermath of operations in Chechnya and Dagestan, using the lessons learned from there.

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Oberon

If I had to guess I'd say that the procurement process probably started in the aftermath of operations in Chechnya and Dagestan, using the lessons learned from there.

Not really, procurement before GPV2007-2015 was very limited and the idea was to have a small elite crew (in the VDV and constant readiness units). The 080808 war has shown the need for all round high quality Armed Forces.

[MH]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Two rights don't make a wrong. Two lies don't make a truth. One doesn't have to be for something just because they're against its opposite. There are still better solutions to this conflict than escalating it. But the western rhetoric is increasingly turning into some sort of exercise in self-righteous BS about saving Ukraine. Yes, Ukraine it's pretty screwed up - thanks for noticing after two decades. Could've done something about it earlier.

Ok it is then matter which wrong you would preferred then.
There is a historical reason why eastern courtiers prefer to stay away from Russia.
In the present things are not much different as well , Russia has nothing much to offer.
It could be a great country to trade with , in terms of its political system and attitude , peoples with western orientation and some tradition in democracy remain wary and prefer to stay away from its influence.
For two decades no thing much happened in Ukraine ,corruption was at the tops yet when it actually did happen and west took the initiative here is the conflict. ...Ukrainians deserve some credit too I think - for the initiative.
Could be you believe it is all just a power play of master overlords who brainwashed the Ukrainian people because they don't have half the IQ people in the west or Russia have, not knowing what is good for them anyway...and that is all there is to it.

Solution might be if Ukraine becomes a neutral country if it is really a matter of Ukraine becoming NATO member and not just Russians restoring their glorious empire.
Yet since there are no many volunteers they grab what they can....

Any way maybe I missed something , it would be interesting to know what solutions you would offer, a solution which could hold water.

[ikalugin]

Considering how they have exchanged one set of corrupt politicians for another set of not only corrupt but xeno patriotic politicians?

On the positive side - we have signed the contract for a bridge into (Russian) Crimea, while under Yanukovich (who did not conduct any real pro Russian policy) we were going to build a bridge into Ukrainian Crimea.

[ikalugin]

An interesting thing - the call for the UN peacekeepers (to control the border) actually undermines the Minsk agreements, as per them the transfer of border control would be completed only after Ukraine goes through constitutional reform amongst other things.

[kranz]

exhibition of captured russian gear in Kiev.
http://tinylink.net/zsk
(click on the photo, then on the arrows)

[ikalugin]

Last time I have seen that in Kiev, they just happened to be Ukrainian equipment items. SO ironic when people laugh at their own dead soldiers.

[Dowly]

What does the article identify them as, out of curiousity.

[August]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Last time I have seen that in Kiev, they just happened to be Ukrainian equipment items. SO ironic when people laugh at their own dead soldiers.

Not one dead soldier in any of those pictures. Guess what you seen ain't the same thing.