Who Started World War II?

[August]

Originally Posted by Mr Quatro

Correct How could there be a World War without the USA declaring war on Germany after Japan attacked Pearl Harbor

Actually Germany declared war on the USA first, three days after we declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor. The little corporal could have avoided war with us altogether (at least until we knocked off Japan).
Therefore without a shadow of a doubt it was hitler and the nazis that started World War II. End of debate.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by August

Actually Germany declared war on the USA first, three days after we declared war on Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

The usa were already technically at war with Germany.

[August]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

The usa were already technically at war with Germany. End of the debate.

No technically they were not at war and you well know it but if you really want to go down that road then it was the Germans who first shot at US ships starting back in 1939 not the other way around so sorry the nazi's loose yet again.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

This is the international law that made consensus at the time.

The Kellogg-Briand pact of 1928 which was signed by Germany states that nations should not use war to solve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them."

Now, we've danced around causes and effects in this topic, but the ultimate question "Who started World War II" boils down to who fired the shots, because until the actual outbreak of hostilities it cannot be classed as a war. If you wish to cite the invasion of Poland as the beginning of WWII, then I think we can all agree on the fact that Germany fired on Poland first. Poland did not invade Germany, nor, despite the best attempts of Goebbels, did Polish soldiers attack a German radio station.
At the point in which Germany invaded Poland it was not under threat of invasion from any other nation. Britain and France were hostile after being shown up by Hitler disregarding the Munich Agreements, but both were in a defensive stance rather than offensive. Poland was decided as the red line, if Hitler had not crossed that red line, then Britain and France would not have declared war. In fact, if Hitler had shown a bit more diplomatic acumen, he could have easily have drawn Britain and France into an anti-Soviet alliance. However he was too busy enlarging the German Reich to focus on diplomatic overtures, and resorted to force rather than diplomacy. So ultimately we wound up on the side of the Soviets against Hitler, even though we'd already fought the Soviets once already and up until the remilitarisation of the Rhineland...in fact up until the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Britain and France, Britain especially, saw the Soviet Union as the much greater threat to European peace. Both were desperate to avoid another great war, they wouldn't have thrown Czechoslovakia under the bus if they hadn't have been, but really Hitler pushed his luck too far and too fast. The rest is history.

Originally Posted by Joefour

Speaking as an American, my country should have stayed the hell out of it. But there were many Americans who had the same view that FDR threw in jail. For one, Lindbergh would have ended up behind bars if he were not so beloved by the American public.

You may not know it, but FDR had evil designs on YOUR empire and played Winnie like an old violin.

Staying out of the war really wasn't an option for America, especially after Germany declared war on the Soviet Union. Because after that point one of two things was going to happen, either Germany would win, gain the massive land and manpower, then turn its sights on overthrowing America as a dominant power, or the Soviet Union would win and steamroller through the whole of Europe. Either which way America would have lost the foothold in Europe that gave it the power needed to rival the Soviet Union in the Cold War. Eventually the war would have come to Americas shores, and the enemy would have been twice as powerful as the ones America has faced before.
America wouldn't have been occupied, or any thing like 'The Man in the High Castle', but it would have been humiliated, and perhaps forced into disarmament and reparations.

So yeah, staying out was not really an option. Oh, and about FDR screwing us over, we were already screwed, between being screwed by Hitler or being screwed by FDR, it's better the screwing you know.

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by August

No technically they were not at war and you well know it but if you really want to go down that road then it was the Germans who first shot at US ships starting back in 1939 not the other way around so sorry the nazi's loose yet again.

Yes, technically Fahnenbohn IS right. FDR was supplying Britain with war materiel in violation of international laws.

Here is just one article on the subject www.historyarticles.com/undeclared-war/

That's just one. Plenty more available out there if you need 'em.

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Oberon

The Kellogg-Briand pact of 1928 which was signed by Germany states that nations should not use war to solve "disputes or conflicts of whatever nature or of whatever origin they may be, which may arise among them."

Now, we've danced around causes and effects in this topic, but the ultimate question "Who started World War II" boils down to who fired the shots, because until the actual outbreak of hostilities it cannot be classed as a war. If you wish to cite the invasion of Poland as the beginning of WWII, then I think we can all agree on the fact that Germany fired on Poland first. Poland did not invade Germany, nor, despite the best attempts of Goebbels, did Polish soldiers attack a German radio station.
At the point in which Germany invaded Poland it was not under threat of invasion from any other nation. Britain and France were hostile after being shown up by Hitler disregarding the Munich Agreements, but both were in a defensive stance rather than offensive. Poland was decided as the red line, if Hitler had not crossed that red line, then Britain and France would not have declared war. In fact, if Hitler had shown a bit more diplomatic acumen, he could have easily have drawn Britain and France into an anti-Soviet alliance. However he was too busy enlarging the German Reich to focus on diplomatic overtures, and resorted to force rather than diplomacy. So ultimately we wound up on the side of the Soviets against Hitler, even though we'd already fought the Soviets once already and up until the remilitarisation of the Rhineland...in fact up until the invasion of Czechoslovakia, Britain and France, Britain especially, saw the Soviet Union as the much greater threat to European peace. Both were desperate to avoid another great war, they wouldn't have thrown Czechoslovakia under the bus if they hadn't have been, but really Hitler pushed his luck too far and too fast. The rest is history.



Staying out of the war really wasn't an option for America, especially after Germany declared war on the Soviet Union. Because after that point one of two things was going to happen, either Germany would win, gain the massive land and manpower, then turn its sights on overthrowing America as a dominant power, or the Soviet Union would win and steamroller through the whole of Europe. Either which way America would have lost the foothold in Europe that gave it the power needed to rival the Soviet Union in the Cold War. Eventually the war would have come to Americas shores, and the enemy would have been twice as powerful as the ones America has faced before.
America wouldn't have been occupied, or any thing like 'The Man in the High Castle', but it would have been humiliated, and perhaps forced into disarmament and reparations.

So yeah, staying out was not really an option. Oh, and about FDR screwing us over, we were already screwed, between being screwed by Hitler or being screwed by FDR, it's better the screwing you know.

The war come to OUR shores? The Type IX boats did a lot of damage up and down the coastal waters because the Navy had it's head buried in the sand but that was it.
I can see the headlines clearly: "Waffen SS Troops Have Disembarked in New York City-First Order of Business is to Blow Up Statue of Liberty"

You've got to be kiddin' me fella.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Joefour

The war come to OUR shores? The Type IX boats did a lot of damage up and down the coastal waters because the Navy had it's head buried in the sand but that was it.
I can see the headlines clearly: "Waffen SS Troops Have Disembarked in New York City-First Order of Business is to Blow Up Statue of Liberty"

You've got to be kiddin' me fella.

If the Soviet Union and the UK had been defeated, do you really think that America and Nazi Germany could have lived side by side, happy as best buddies? I mean, that's not even taking Japan into the equation here, the Japan who Germany was technically allied with.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Staying out of the war really wasn't an option for America, especially after Germany declared war on the Soviet Union. [...] either Germany would win, [...] then turn its sights on overthrowing America as a dominant power.

This is a pure phantasm. Hitler never wanted to dominate the world. He said : "Germany will be a great power." He didn't say "the" great power.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

This is a pure phantasm. Hitler never wanted to dominate the world. He said : "Germany will be a great power." He didn't say "the" great power.

But he did insinuate that in the future that "a struggle for world domination might take place between the United States and a European alliance comprising a "new association of nations, consisting of individual states with high national value". "

Furthermore, in the Zweites Buch he also states that long term, the greatest potential opponent was the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zweites_Buch

[Joefour]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

This is a pure phantasm. Hitler never wanted to dominate the world. He said : "Germany will be a great power." He didn't say "the" great power.

I agree. My own personal studies over the past 40+ years have shown me that the idea that Germany was out to conquer the world was nothing more than a Churchillian myth.

JEEZ! You guys must be nightowls! It's 7:00 PM here and I'm Zulu -7 hrs. behind you.

[Oberon]

I agree that there was no long term plan, in fact, to be honest it's hard to find any long term plan in Nazi Germany, the chaotic system of government that Hitler created around him made such things pretty difficult. However, in a bi or tripolar world it would be almost inconceivable that the superpowers would not clash in some manner. Look at the USSR and USA during the Cold War, look at the proxy wars that took place and how close to war we came on more than one occasion.
Hitler might not have planned to go to war with America in the aftermath of a European victory, but I'd put good money on a clash happening at some point anyway. Certainly Hitler would not have embraced America with open arms, especially not after the assistance that had been given to the UK during the war time. Perhaps if a fascist government had come into power in the US then relations might have improved, perhaps if Jews started getting treated like blacks, then things might not have come to blows, but you put superpowers in a room together and eventually someone is going to elbow someone in the guts.

[Fahnenbohn]

Originally Posted by August

No this debate took place long ago in a town called Nurenburg Germany under the eyes of the entire world by people not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet. This debate was conducted in great form and detail.

I hope you are joking !!! The defense has been very severely hampered, and the prosecution didn't need to provide evidence. This trial was a total travesty !

[Fahnenbohn]

@ Oberon. After peaceful settlement of German-Polish dispute and restitution of its colonies, Hitler had only 2 problems to solve : restarting talks on disarmament, and organizing an international conference to create a Jewish state somewhere. And then retire. But that is forgetting Britain, USSR, and Roosevelt...

[August]

Originally Posted by Fahnenbohn

I hope you are joking !!! The defense has been very severely hampered, and the prosecution didn't need to provide evidence. This trial was a total travesty !

Didn't need to provide evidence? Evidence of the nazis guilt was all over Europe. Evidence is still all over Europe and it's only the willfully blind that cannot see it.

Originally Posted by August

No this debate took place long ago in a town called Nurenburg Germany under the eyes of the entire world by people not hiding behind the anonymity of the internet.

This debate was conducted in great form and detail and resulted in a bunch of criminals getting their just deserts. I fail to see the value in repeating this debate ad nauseum just because one side doesn't want to face up to their criminal history.

August!