[REL] Radar Training for Nisgeis' 3D TDC and Radar Range Unit UPDATED: 7/31/10

[I'm goin' down]

I was with Nisgeis and Urge with respect to their dialogue, but missed the reference to starboard. I did not catch it. But Mr. razark certainly did. Sharp as razor he is, very sharp.

I still want to know how to track the ship to the south in TM 3?

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

Also, I noticed that when I set the course correctly, it seems to change for the target over time. Am I imagining it? Does taking another radar reading screw up the course setting?

I am back to TM4 trying to lock on to the tanker to the NW. I missed my second attempt. i am not sure where I went wrong, but I have its course plotted as 100 degrees, and I think that is pretty close. I plotted its speed at 9.5 kts. from a distance of roughly 7-8000 yds. Later, I used sonar and ended up with 5.5 kts. I will figure it out or die trying.

Thank You Nisgeis. You know part of what screwed me up is the fact that the sub was pointing north when this test mission started so true and relative are the same. Having said that I am still an idiot. Oh well, onward and upward relatively speaking. Or was that truly speaking? I'm so confused...no, no I get it-I think.

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

a good pic like that Nisgeis is worth a thousand words. Nothing can get confused in the translation.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I still want to know how to track the ship to the south in TM 3?

Also, I noticed that when I set the course correctly, it seems to change for the target over time. Am I imagining it? Does taking another radar reading screw up the course setting?

I am back to TM4 trying to lock on to the tanker to the NW. I missed my second attempt. i am not sure where I went wrong, but I have its course plotted as 100 degrees, and I think that is pretty close. I plotted its speed at 9.5 kts. from a distance of roughly 7-8000 yds. Later, I used sonar and ended up with 5.5 kts. I will figure it out or die trying.

It has been mentioned numerous times that if you update the range and bearing then you must check and re-enter the course as entering a new bearing will screw up the course, due to a bug in the TDC.

The first missions are radar training and plotting missons, so they vary i difficulty. The third part of the last mission is the most difficult, as not only is it raining and foggy, but the target to the South (if that's the third target in the blurb) is zig zagging so is not on a steady course. This is designed for you to check your ability to pick up zigs, not really for TDC technique (that's what the TDC mission is for). If you fire from long range and don't keep an eye on when the target last zigged, you may well miss.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

a good pic like that Nisgeis is worth a thousand words. Nothing can get confused in the translation.

But you're so good at it.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'. That's just a note on what the next part is. It's like saying 'And now to mix the ingredients and put the cake in the oven', followed by a detailed list of what ingredients to mix together and how and then putting it in the oven. You wouldn't make the cake twice and end up with two cakes would you? We'll nickname you Two Cakes.

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

Are you actually under the impression that I owe you something? I mean aside from the 12+ hours of my scarce personal time I spent putting that tutorial together?

JCC

Nisgeis wrote...

No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'.

John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.

Nisgeis wrote in post 127...

What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

After I went thru the XTR5 TDC Training mission dozens of times doing it per JCC's tutorial and consistently missing astern. After changing my procedure(per Nisgeis suggestion) to range and bearing, AOB, speed, turn on PK, range and bearing,AOB I had consistent hits. I believe anyone following that tutorial to the letter will consistently miss.

Urge

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by Urge

John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.

It doesn't say turn on the PK twice, which is what IGD is talking about. JCC's method works also, but is more time sensitive, so you can't hang about and have to start the PK super quick if there are no more observations (especially if you are moving fast yourself), but as JCC's tutorials also says there is a final observation where you would update the range and bearing and course if the TDC didn't match up.

True, I was just pointing it out because I didn't want anyone to go thru the frustration that I did. And I'm certainly not trying to demean JCC for his tutorial and the hours of hard work he put into it. John, THANK YOU!!!

Urge

[I'm goin' down]

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight. I would have posted this earlier this evening, but my computer had a meltdown. I had to restore a back up to get windows to work.

First, Channing's tutorial contains 59 screenshots, give or take a couple. That is up there in league with the Mobo tutorial and an Capn' Scurvy's explanation of attacking with map contacts disabled. And what makes this mod really hard is that for some of the practice missions we are relying on radar only because map contacts are disabled and the targets are not visible due to weather, etc. This means if a mistake is made, you cannot be certain what protocol you failed to follow. The 3D TDC mod and its explanation are complex especially for those not familiar with the ins and outs of how the scheme works. You are familiar with it from the inside out. I am not, and rely on your instruction. The number of steps and screenshots used to explain establish its complexity. Those that use this mod will only be advanced players, and I think that has borne out by the few of us that have jumped in to try and master it.

I note that the Solution Solver program is also complex, but gutted provided a two or three part tutorial on You Tube to help explain it. Seeing a visual, real time, of the program in action was extremely helpful, as he clarified issues then and there.

Urge had a problem with relative bearing in connection with his speed calculations. I too have issues with calculating speed, but I believe I am close to resolving it. But it has taken awhile.

You can expect more such questions, several being repetitive, due the mods complexity.

As for my question directed to Channing, no, you do not owe me a damn thing. However, I was misled in screen shot (no. 39, if I counted correctly five hours ago) where you stated, ("The contact's speed now shows as 10 knots in the TDC. (period added.) Now to enter the Range and then start the Position Keeper. (italic, bold and period added.)" Until I read Nisgeis reply to my question, I took the second sentence to mean that this was the point in time to activate the PK. Looking at it in retrospect upon considering Nisgeis reply, I realize that the sentence's meaning is different than I ascribed to it. What you intended to say, and said somewhat indirectly, is closer to this, "The following screenshots will lead to activation of the PK wherein you will finalize the firing solution." I took Channing's quoted instruction literally, and became confused when I subsequently read a second screenshot instruction directing that the PK be activated.

A similar "ambiguity" occurred with the Target dial screenshot of the 3D TDC re the bearing of 338 degrees. The instruction advised to pull the triangle and watch the Target Course triangles move accordingly. I interpreted that to mean that one starts by dragging the Target dial to 338 degrees. I tried it and it did not work. A misreading on my part, but I attribute it to the fact that name of the dials are similar and Channing was discussing moving the triangle on the Target dial to establish course. A second look at the screenshot this evening indicates I misread his direction, but the confusion stemmed from the initial referral to the Target dial in connection with setting a target's course. My confusion can be attributed in part to the fact that my point of reference is the Easy Aob mod, where one adjusts the Aob dial on the stadimeter, with the PK deactivated, to move the "Target" dial on the TDC screen to its correct course.

Finally, a loosely related issue occurred with Urge and the true course/relative course plotting issue. Also, the degree of technical difficulty in cogently explaining this mod without good documentation/screen shots is exemplified in Nisgeis' inadvertent referral to "starboard" versus "port" in his reply post, which had it not been picked up and reported, might have cause someone else fits down the road.

As to the comment that due to a bug in the TDC, course is required to be reset when new bearings are taken, and that the subject as been mentioned previously, I have a simple response. I simply forgot about it. It is another "piece of data," and without the context of setting course, it fell through the cracks. Nor was it mentioned in the tutorial. I am looking at trees right now, and seeing the forest isn't in the cards yet. Others will be doing so in the future and may not read through this thread to uncover all the nuances. There are too many cards on the table, short and simple. I am still trying to remember to set the Attack Dial on Range when I plan to use mod. I am in the midst of the TMs for a reason.

Having said all of the above, I think this mod is an excellent piece of work. Channing's tutorial is quite good, but certain areas require serious contemplation, especially plotting for speed. In the end I think it the mod will be used by a small group of hard core players who are into max realism, who have the patience for it, and who are willing to spend substantial classroom time before using it as a prime attack technique. Using this mod means attacks will take longer, and those interested in tonnage records won't get there quickly playing at this level of realism.

If that doesn't clear the air, I probably have little more to say.

Back to one of my questions. This is for Nisgeis, if you feel like responding. I was mistaken re the TM. I think I said TM 3. I think I may be meaning TM 2, because in this mission the targets are visible. I sank the ship to the NW. I hit the ship to the NE with two torpedoes (see the posted screen shot.) The third ship in TM2, to the south, is the problem. It is heading easterly if I recall, but if I turn the boat in a southerly direction, I do not have time to set up unless I am extremely proficient, which I am not yet. Is there a recommended way to attack this ship? Should I run ahead of it, taking readings as I head eastward?

As for TM3 (this is the one where you cannot see the targets due to weather), I am still trying to sink the ship to the NW. I cannot see it because of the rain. My issue here appears to be target speed, but I should get a good fix on it in the next day or two or three. I am not asking for help on this TM, as once I get a lock on the speed, I should nail it.

[Nisgeis]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

No hostility here. I was just engaged in a little Mickey taking, but I think JCC's post may have coloured what I put. If I was annoyed with you, I just wouldn't respond . I know you have trouble seeing the wood for the trees, so I've been italicising and emboldening the parts that are the import bits of information, so you can easily pick them out. The really important bits are capitalised as well. It's not me shouting or anything like that.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And what makes this mod really hard is that for some of the practice missions you are relying on radar only due to weather, etc. This means if a mistake is made, you cannot be certain what protocol you failed to follow.

Plot with map contacts on, the controls will all be the same and you'll be able to see what you are doing wrong.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Those that use this mod will only be advanced players, and I think that has borne out by the few of us that have jumped in to try and master it.

I know it's a low take up mod, as i the case with all things that are 'realistic' but harder.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

Also, the degree of technical difficulty in cogently explaining this mod without good documentation/screen shots is exemplified in Nisgeis' inadvertent referral to "starboard" versus "port" in his reply post, which had not been picked up, might have cause someone else fits down the road.

I was ninja quoted M'Lord before I could proof read it (I was going to edit it with the ammended screenshot).

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I think I said PM 3. I think I meant PM 2, because in this mission the targets are visible. I sank the ship to the NW. I hit the ship to the NE with two torpedoes (see the posted screen shot.) The third ship in PM2, to the south, is the problem. It is heading easterly if I recall, but if I turn the boat in a southerly direction, I do not have time to set up unless I am extremely proficient, which I am not yet. Is there a recommended way to attack this boat? Should I run ahead of it, taking its bearing as I head eastward?

Plot the boat using map contacts on and just marking the map directly on the ship icon and have a look at the course it takes. It will zig zag at random intervals. It's a radar tracking mission, so is designed to test your ability to discern when the target zigs from a bad plot. If you can't discern that the target is zigging, then you need to practise more accurate plotting/radar reading. If you can see by your plot that it's zigging, then you have a chance at sinking it. Your best chance is to manouver your boat into a position where you are close and to wait until it has just zigged and you have the new course. It's not for the faint hearted. The boats may disappear at the end of their waypoints, so you may not have a lot of time, but that's war.

In general, in a real situation, if you need more time, then plot where he is and where he is going and then manouver to a favourable position, e.g. do an end around and lie in wait for him, or paralell his course and try adjusting your speed to keep him at a contant bearing. Don't mess about too much though, as one day you'll track a TF that is going at 1 knot faster than your top speed and if you don't get a handle on the tactical situation pretty quickly, you'll miss your intercept opporutnity.

[I'm goin' down]

got it. I think I have worked out all of the issues with the mod. Now it is just a matter of practice. I have become a very good plotter. That last two mission plots had range and bearing readings that plotted in perfectly straight lines. My problem arose later in the first mission, when I overshot the target because I wasn't watching the Nav Map, and on second, repeat mission when my plots for speed calculation indicated the target was on a closer parallel course to the course plotted by four by range and bearing readings. I do not know how, on the second attempt, the target ended up on the parallel course, closer to my boat, so I exited figuring that the solution was bad and I would likely miss the target if I shot at it.

In any event, I think it is a matter of time before I start nailing the targets in TMs. Maybe this weekend...

[Nisgeis]

On some of the targets the courses will be different each time you replay the mission, to give some variability. There should be one straight fixed course, one random course and one zigger.

[I'm goin' down]

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I have been rereading your tutorial. I did you notice that you instruct to start the PK, but never instruct to turn it off. (I can live with that instruction.) Further along in the tutorial, you instruct to reenter range and speed. You instruct to turn the PK on a second time. Why would I do that? THE PK IS ON AND HAS NOT BEEN TURN OFF. I think it is a duplicative instruction. Correct me if I am wrong.

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

And I want Mr. Channing to explain if he merely made a mistake in his tutorial re turning the PK on a second time?

Originally Posted by John Channing

Are you actually under the impression that I owe you something? I mean aside from the 12+ hours of my scarce personal time I spent putting that tutorial together?
JCC

Originally Posted by Urge

Nisgeis wrote...
John's tutorial does say to enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing again and AOB again and then turn on the PK.
Urge

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

It doesn't say turn on the PK twice, which is what IGD is talking about. JCC's method works also, but is more time sensitive, so you can't hang about and have to start the PK super quick if there are no more observations (especially if you are moving fast yourself), but as JCC's tutorials also says there is a final observation where you would update the range and bearing and course if the TDC didn't match up.

Originally Posted by Urge

True, I was just pointing it out because I didn't want anyone to go thru the frustration that I did. And I'm certainly not trying to demean JCC for his tutorial and the hours of hard work he put into it. John, THANK YOU!!!
Urge

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

As for my question directed to Channing, no, you do not owe me a damn thing. However, I was misled in screen shot (no. 39, if I counted correctly five hours ago) where you stated, ("The contact's speed now shows as 10 knots in the TDC. (period added.) Now to enter the Range and then start the Position Keeper. (italic, bold and period added.)" Until I read Nisgeis reply to my question, I took the second sentence to mean that this was the point in time to activate the PK. Looking at it in retrospect upon considering Nisgeis reply, I realize that the sentence's meaning is different than I ascribed to it. What you intended to say, and said somewhat indirectly, is closer to this, "The following screenshots will lead to activation of the PK wherein you will finalize the firing solution." I took Channing's quoted instruction literally, and became confused when I subsequently read a second screenshot instruction directing that the PK be activated.

Okay, this is for Urge primarily, as I have addressed Channing in a lengthy post above.

My point to Channing was simple. The chain of quotes above explains how I misinterpreted his tutorial. You apparently did as well. Channing take note, for whatever it is worth. The tutorial is good overall, but if you ever decide to revise portions, our questions/comments are good areas to focus on for purposes of clarifying it.

Urge, I believe that Channing was taking his shot at my second quoted post above. He was not taking a shot at you. I can stand on my own two feet. There was no need for you explain yourself or imply an apology. Your position re the PK activation was legitimate. If we are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, at least we are in the same drawer with to some serious steel.

My second quoted post above was terse. Probably overly so. That was unintentional. Channing is likely frustrated because he spent a lot of time on the tutorial, and is likely offended by its tone. Don't let is get to you, John. I am on your side here. I was frustrated due to the fact that I couldn't figure out what you were instructing. I am akin to a church member listening to the gospel.

Anyway, two things now are clear, at least as to Urge and me, and they are that you only turn the PK on once, and that the important reference to it is on the screenshot nearest the end of the tutorial. (The screen shots are not numbered or I would be more specific.)

Goodnight! I am going to bed. My computer has been down most of the day, I lost a month's worth of emails when I restored my back up fliles, and, worst of all, I got in no practice missions for the 3D TDC mod as a consequence.

IGD wrote...

I sense some serious hostility on both of your parts. Let me set you straight.

Excuse me? I don't even know what you are talking about here.

IGD wrote...

The chain of quotes above explains how I misinterpreted his tutorial. You apparently did as well.

I am going to let these quotes largely speak for themselves.

Nisgeis wrote... Quote:
Are you sure you are following the tutorial exactly, E.G. when you enter a new range and bearing you reset the course as well back to 338?

I am being very consistent, I enter range and bearing, AOB, speed, range and bearing, AOB and turn on the PK. The green and white radar ranges match up right after I turn it on...

Urge

Nisgeis wrote...

Post up a screenshot of the TDC at the moment you fire the torpedoes and I'll see if I can spot anything wrong. Right after you enter the info it will all agree, so there must be something that's happening later on to make the solution innaccurate.
BTW, why are you entering the Raneg and bearing and AOB twice?

Urge wrote...

because that is what is says to do in the tutorial.

<!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:&quot;&quot;; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} -->

Nisgeis wrote...

What you need to do is to put in the Range and Bearing, AOB (course of 338), Speed, turn on the PK and then, enter the range and bearing again and the correct the course to 338.

If you don't turn on the PK before the second entry then all the relative motion of yourself and the target won't be taken into account and the solution will be off by quite a way if you don't correct it. The situation is made worse if you are travelling at high speed (heading directly towars the target) or you are changing course before the PK is truend on, as the relative bearing won't be right and the range won't be right and the. Giving it the second update ensures that it's more or less bang on.

The idea is to update the TDC every now and then with new information if it is different and try to use the differences to identify course and speed changes. The first setup is a problem though as the data will be old by the time the PK is turned on, so you need to update it with the fresh info.

John Channing's tutorial states that you should enter range and bearing-AOB-speed-range and bearing again-AOB again-turn on PK




John Channing wrote...

The position keeper will take the data you have entered and continuously update itself. As the contact draws closer the range will count down, the bearing will change, the positional relationship between your boat and the contact will change, but the course will stay the same.

It is NOT tracking the contact, it is updating the data you sent it. If the Contact changes course or speed you will have to update the data.

You now have a solution running and the contact has changed status to a target.

If your solution tracks correctly by watching this screen you can make adjustments to your course and speed to get into a perfect firing position.

As this was a test mission and I knew that none of the parameters were going to change it did not occur to me to update the TDC because I did not think it to be necessary. Now I will update any solution periodically as I see that it can only help.

IGD wrote...

Urge, I believe that Channing was taking his shot at my second quoted post above. He was not taking a shot at you. I can stand on my own two feet. There was no need for you explain yourself or imply an apology.

Where are you getting this from??? It is clear that John was a little upset at your attitude of entitlement. My comments were offered as a suggestion to hopefully make a difficult mod a little clearer. I wasn't apologizing, who would I apologize to and for what?

Dazed and Confused,
Urge

[I'm goin' down]

It is impossible for me to mult-quote a response to your post (#254). I tried and failed.

I assumed that both Nisgeis and Channing, collectively, expressed hostility to my posts. See posts ##244 - 247, inclusive, and 249. In post 250 Nisgeis notes that he was not pissed off.

(BTW, in post #244, Nisgeis explains why Channing is not making a duplicate reference to activating the TDC, nor was Channing mistakenly instructing us to activate the TDC twice. Nisgeis states as follows with respect to my question on the subject: "No, you read it wrong. I'm assuming you mean the part where he says 'Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper'. That's just a note on what the next part [of the tutorial] is [about]." (brackets supplied.] Channing's use of the words "Now to enter the range and then start the Position Keeper," while not the most precise, is his instruction that the next series of screenshots will detail the steps the reader must follow to enter the range.)

As for your response to my post re your post not constituting an apology, I interpreted it as verging on one. I assumed, apparently mistakenly, you thought that Channing was ticked off across the board, and wanted to duck the fire. If that was not the case, fine by me.

I think that does it. I think we have killed this puppy.