'Seawolves' contains Mods by...

[irishred]

Originally Posted by Beery

Maybe it's just my experience then. After doing a little mod work for Red Baron (the original - hehe, that dates me, LOL) I did my first serious mod work on the Battleground series of games by Talonsoft. That was a very bad situation because the developers regarded mod-makers as a definite threat - I was even threatened with legal action by Talonsoft merely for producing free unofficial mods. I then worked on Red Baron 3D, which, after a promising start, became very much a house divided against itself due to mod-makers being very concerned with keeping what they learned to themselves (and that was because some of them wanted to make some money from it - which eventually happened for the 'Full Metal Jacket' mod - another case of stolen mods and copyrighted material getting into a for-profit mod). Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated. Then I went on to try modding IL-2, which was a non-starter, since the owner of Maddox Games is philosophically opposed to the very concept of mods, and wants to keep total control over the post-release development of the product. After those experiences, SH3 was a breath of fresh air - the developers are positively mod-friendly, and the community is both welcoming and generous.

I remember all of this with Talonsoft, quite a while ago, incidents like this resulted in a lot of their devs looking to greener pastures.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by irishred

I remember all of this with Talonsoft, quite a while ago, incidents like this resulted in a lot of their devs looking to greener pastures.

Yeah. One of the developers (I don't know who it was) actually went so far as to send me a free copy of the Battleground Prelude to Waterloo game. That's how I found out that it was just another case of the megalomaniac boss syndrome. Heck, the owner of the company even pissed off the game's historical consultant, as well as John Tiller - the person who designed the game system that the Battleground system was based on. The other good thing I got out of this was that I got to exchange emails with these two guys, both of whom are very nice.

[GT182]

Then I went on to work on B-17 II, where all mod activity was compromised by the official forum moderators who were very much 'anti-mod' and very politically motivated.

I sure hope you didn"t include me that statement Beery. I wasn't politically anything with B17 II. All I did was try and save v8th OPS from going down the toilet. AND, it will one day fly again when B17 "The Legend Returns" comes out in 2006. And I hope to see you back with us at B-A too.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by GT182

I sure hope you didn"t include me that statement Beery. I wasn't politically anything with B17 II. All I did was try and save v8th OPS from going down the toilet. AND, it will one day fly again when B17 "The Legend Returns" comes out in 2006. And I hope to see you back with us at B-A too.

The moderators in general were very anti-mod. Heck, it was virtually impossible to make mods for that game due to the vicious attacks directed at mods and modders - attacks that usually came from the moderators themselves. I don't recall you as a moderator, GT182, which probably means you weren't a part of the general anti-mod sentiment at BombsAway.com. You can't dispute that the moderators at BA were generally no friends to the mod community - a community that withered and died due to moderator antagonism. Mod threads were all too often silenced, and mod links went dead suspiciously quickly. The game itself withered and died from much the same thing - deprived of the sort of post-release development that mods can convey. I mean my realism mod for B-17 II was the smallest mod I've ever made for any game - it comprised one single file, yet it was the most comprehensive and the most popular mod for that game, and I had to actively work to keep it available on the forums. It's pretty sad when forum moderators actively work to stifle a game's development. The most influential moderators of the bombs away forums made it impossible for a mod community to become established. Their attitude killed B-17 II, and I will never forgive some of those guys for virtually destroying what had the potential to be a great game. If only they had let modders do some post-release gameplay balancing, that game would have been well-known even today, whereas it is now barely known at all even among flight sim buffs.

[GT182]

Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file. Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

In Ops we kept the origimal R&R only because most of the newer member were so confused on changing things in it. I know you tried your best to get a file that fit all aspects of the game and tried to match the way things really were in the 8th AAAF. I might still have a few that you made up.I think 5 or 6 in all. Where they are is a mystery tho as I have cds all over the place with B17 stufff on them. I'm not a very good file clerk.

[Hawkers]

Hawker, I went to bed before your response and just now saw your request.
My point was that while many are outraged that X-1 will sell this (reportedly for $25.00 Euros) and they will make big bucks at the expense of many freeware modders but then you state doubts that anyone would buy a donation ware product for maybe $5-7.00. Can you not see that if no one would want it for a small amount, there is no reason at all to think others would pay five times that.

Fair enough, Wulfmann. I see where your argument is coming from. I'm just not convinced, that's all. These days, most folks have access to hi-speed/broadband connections, so making a CD available for those who can't download is becoming a less valid reason. Secondly, before all this X1/Seewolves BS blew up, everyone was happy enough downloading from Terrapin's site and others - no mention was ever made by anyone in the community of the need for a complete mods packaged CD, with installer, etc.
Thirdly, there is a technical issue - just how many mods can you actually put on such a CD install with a single installer? Certain mods will conflict with eachother, and that means some mods will have to be left out. Which ones do you include and which ones do you drop?
Finally, there is a legal issue here. Someone (sorry - can't remember who) has already pointed out on this forum that no CD can be sold (for whatever price) containing derivations of UBI's original work, without the express permission of UBIsoft first.
Since AFAIK UBI has already given that permission to X1 for their add-on, will they then grant permission for a rival package to be sold at a fraction of the price? I'm not so sure.

Nice shuttle pic, BTW, Mate!

Must have been quite a sight!

Hawkers

[GT182]

Hawkers, I'd imagine that a CD, or DVD, of all the mods made so far would be ok if.... the modders gave permission and the CD was sold only for the cost of the disc and shipping with a bit of handling charge added too.

I for one would go that route, but seeing I have broadband and most all the mods to date, I've my own DVD of mods already... not for sale for any amount of money.

[Stymnus]

Originally Posted by GT182

Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file. Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

In Ops we kept the origimal R&R only because most of the newer member were so confused on changing things in it. I know you tried your best to get a file that fit all aspects of the game and tried to match the way things really were in the 8th AAAF. I might still have a few that you made up.I think 5 or 6 in all. Where they are is a mystery tho as I have cds all over the place with B17 stufff on them. I'm not a very good file clerk.

You guys were at Bombs-Away too? I don't know if you guys would remember me. I came out with one of the P-38 skins that folks seemed to like, though I'm no master modder, that's true

I drift away from games after a while and I'm afraid I drifted away from Mighty Eighth after a while too. But it's good to see guys I think I remember (I think I do remember GT182)

I went over to beta test America's Army for a while, then stayed away from military titles for a while. But here I am

[Hawkers]

I for one would go that route, but seeing I have broadband and most all the mods to date, I've my own DVD of mods already... not for sale for any amount of money.

That's my point, Mate

Such a CD is only going to be of interest within our community - and how many of us have broadband/high-speed, and already have downloaded most of the mods that would be included on such a CD? Most, if not all of us, I would guess.

I can't see a complete mods CD having such a demand within our community.

Hawkers

[Sardaukar]

these mods have done an incredible service to the game, one of the bigest problems wis getting these mods to the general public, and this is what X1 is going to do... the more normal users that get exposed to these mods, the more they will talk, lets face it, with out these mods, the game is not complete. Now, X1 are wrong and should be puniched for "stealing" even if they did it for the most part legaly... now if the community could take these mods, make sure they all played nice together, and made one big SIMPLE installer, I would pay money, even more if that money got donated to a good cause!!!

[Stymnus]

Originally Posted by MONOLITH

This next quote is the one of real interest....

I believe it is completely unfair to give the hard working modders of the gaming world false information/hopes.

So, instead of just 'claiming it' let's please see some actual legal documentation, state or federal stautues, anything at all to demonstrate that a modder can sue for use of his mod that UBISOFT retains control of in the first place.

I'm sorry I gave the impression that I thought the modders could sue, or even should, except maybe as a 'cease and desist'. That's not really what I meant here.

What I mean is that X1 should legally be unable to profit off of mods to Ubi's game, according to its EULA, which of course are so seldom supported.

As far as giving 'false hopes', I don't think I'm leading anyone to overrule their own legal aid if they should choose to field it, they know better than I would. I think modders realize that it's done for the joy and enjoyment of seeing your changes happily enjoyed by others -- I have skinned a little for another game and appreciated the knowledge that others liked and used my work, despite that I was unpaid.

I'm sure that modders want just a few things:
o A good and stable repository to share their work
o To 'share and enjoy' as the story goes,
o To NOT BE SCREWED OVER by people seeking to profit off their hard work.

I don't think anyone is demanding money but X1, here.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Sardaukar

these mods have done an incredible service to the game, one of the bigest problems wis getting these mods to the general public, and this is what X1 is going to do... the more normal users that get exposed to these mods, the more they will talk, lets face it, with out these mods, the game is not complete. Now, X1 are wrong and should be puniched for "stealing" even if they did it for the most part legaly... now if the community could take these mods, make sure they all played nice together, and made one big SIMPLE installer, I would pay money, even more if that money got donated to a good cause!!!

So would I...

[Beery]

Originally Posted by GT182

Well I was a moderator back then if you recall. And the only way to mod the game was via the R&R file.

Not really. There were other ways to mod the game. People remember the R&R file because every major mod included that file. What about the skins? What about the Fnames and Lnames file mod? Oh yes, that's right - that particular mod was suppressed very effectively by you know who, because he felt it didn't pay adequate homage to his crewmates (who, it turned out, flew in the PTO, and not the ETO).

Thus you should remember who the biggest anti R&R change antagonist was. And basically he was ignored, nor was he a moderator.

Yes. He was the historical advisor to the game. I wouldn't say he was ignored. On the contrary, he was taken far too seriously, and he wouldn't have been so influential in the community if he hadn't had the support he had from certain influential moderators, to the extent that links to mods that he disliked seemed to disappear with a surprising regularity, and the crew name change mod (which he hated) always disappeared, to the extent that most players who kept up with the mods for that game don't even know that it existed. Anyway, clearly some moderators weren't among the bad guys, but all I'm saying is that the general attitude of the more influential moderators (or the most vocal ones) wasn't exactly supportive of mods.

Anyway, I don't want to get into a heavy discussion of B-17 II here. As far as I'm concerned, that game was a nasty business all around, and I would have been better leaving the darned thing alone and putting my abilities to better use elsewhere. I certainly could have done without all the hassle I got for trying to make that game all it could be.

[JBClark]

Holy ****e

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Abraham

So would I...

The problem as I see it is that if X1 gets these stolen mods published in a commercial form, and if they make money from them, they may automatically have a strong de facto ownership claim since they have a financial stake on these mods - which means that if the original authors of these mods try to release those mods (which are their own work) for free, X1 could even take them to court and have their own case in terms of loss of revenue, etc. The courts very likely regard copyright as only meaningful when loss of revenue is at issue. In such a case, the courts could be persuaded to disallow testimony regarding the original authorship, since the original authors ascribed no monetary value to the mod. That means that anything in the Seewolfe mod could be deemed illegal for any of us to use in free mods, even if one of us was the original author of that part of the mod. If Seewolfe is released in commercial form, you can bet your bottom dollar that it will have a copyright attached to it. If X1 are unprincipled enough to steal other peoples' work, do you really think they would balk at using a lawsuit to take some modmakers to the cleaners financially?