Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged)

[yubba]

Don't sweat it man I do it all the time,, your only human. So, us folks in the states destine to follow Greece over the cliff.

[the_tyrant]

Unfortunately, all Greece can do is to cut everything.

Without money, they can't afford anything! Maybe they also have to sell some state owned industry to raise money

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by yubba

Would that be what's next for Greece ???

No, it's a perfectly valid phrase. A destination doesn't have to be physical. It can be economic, emotional, moral, and a host of other things.

[Catfish]

Hmm, Greece is one thing, but if the US really follow isn't this a sign that capitalism does not work in the long run as well ?
(only joking)

[Oberon]

Right now, for the Greek people, it might be better to just stop now, end this before the Greek people become effective slaves to the economic machine with no rights to speak of.
Perhaps it would be better to focus on getting Greece through an exit from the Euro than to force it to keep agreeing to further and further cuts that are not only damaging what's left of its economy but the well being of its people.

It is a Catch-22, no matter which way Greece goes the ordinary Greek people are going to be the ones who suffer.

[Catfish]

Hmm the thing is since the introduction of the Euro, salaries in Germany have effectively been halved, prices thus effectively doubled - e.g. some 100 gram of bacon costed 3,99 DM before introduction of the Euro, afterwards they costed 3,99 Euro.
But the monthly income of, say, 3000 DM was then halved to 1500 Euros.

At the same time inflation struck, additionally. While electronic products like TVs were relatively 'cheap', daily costs rose badly. In Germany you are paying now 3,80 Euros for a loaf of bread, which is almost 8 DM !

While our government tells us "that there is no inflation", the daily price lists make those statements look like mythomania.
At the same time all kinds of public enterprises like railways, Telecom, power lines, Autobahn are all being sold by the government, and "privatized".
Also, the german reunification took around 500 billion Euros out of existing infrastructure by the german "Treuhand" (this word being a joke in itself), and just trickled somewhere - no company can remember what they did, with the money.

According to their logic this is much better because there is "competition", because prices would fall then. But indeed there is no competition at all, only monopolies raising the prices at their leisure. The remaining Petroleum compaanies do not compete, but tell each other which prices to raise, and when. Different brands raise the prices at the gas stations in a second. One litre of benzine fuel is now at 1 Euro 70 cents, and this is still cheaper than in Italy !

Banks do the same as they did before the crisis, they threatened the EU governments with either helping them in the crisis, or let the whole system go down - effective blackmailing, if you ask me.

They say we are bickereing at a high niveau, but every 4th person in Germany is now threatened with poverty, and the real (read: deviating from official) job situation is almost at 28 percent jobless, mirroring those statistics.

I really cannot see how capitalism with its privatization and growing monopolies alone will make things better here or in Europe, or get us out of this situation, and i have not mentioned the paying for other nations within the EU.
Well communism is obviously not the solution, so - what to do ?

I have nothing against helping Greece and other nations, but i cannot see an improvement of the overall situation, unless the whole economy gets rolling again. And it does not.

[yubba]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Hmm, Greece is one thing, but if the US really follow isn't this a sign that capitalism does not work in the long run as well ?
(only joking)

This is a sign that crowney capitalism and crowney socalism doesn't work, as it stands, all these entitlelist have more to loose than I and I intend to do as little as possible to feed the beast, I believe no one is entitled to the fruits of my labor, if 10% is good enough for god then 5% should be good enough for this no account government

[Catfish]

^ No they feel themselves certainly much higher than being only a divine inthronisation, thus the value added tax is now at 19 percent in Germany, and will be raised soon again.
Energy tax is 75 percent, b.t.w., for fuel.

Eat that US cheapos !

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Right now, for the Greek people, it might be better to just stop now, end this before the Greek people become effective slaves to the economic machine with no rights to speak of.
Perhaps it would be better to focus on getting Greece through an exit from the Euro than to force it to keep agreeing to further and further cuts that are not only damaging what's left of its economy but the well being of its people.

It is a Catch-22, no matter which way Greece goes the ordinary Greek people are going to be the ones who suffer.

Sums it up pretty well IMHO

[STEED]

Greece is history, as I said before...the troika of the European Union, the International Monetary Fund and the European Central Bank have picked it dry.

[Skybird]

Just revelaed - they needed even more over the next two years. 30 billion more to cover costs from just having agreed to give them a two year timeout from the previous austerity plan.

But then, Greece will be saved, finally.

Really. Finally.

In two years at the latest.

Finally.

No further delays and bailouts.

Man, i said: "really".

Really "really" I mean.

I am not kidding.

Serious.

Really finally, serious.

Really "really" serious.

Definitely.

Put some trust into what I say.

Let'S define two years. Earth years, Neptune years? They say the way is the goal. So in two lightyears it will be! Only two lightyears separate us from Greek salvation and end of currency crisis.

That's not much, isn'T it? I mean: two lightyears! C'mon!

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Sums it up pretty well IMHO

I would not be entirely surprised to see another era of the Colonels or at the very least some form of 'government of national unity' backed by the army before the decade is out. Not a route I want to see Greece go down, but unless something amazing happens then there are some turbulent times ahead. We keep pushing the minute hand back by a minute per bailout but it's 23:59 and the second hand is ticking and every time the minute hand is pushed back things get harder and harder for their people. You can only push so much austerity on a populace before there is a major revolution, and civil disorder that not even the police can handle. So then the army is brought in, and they face the awkward decision of what side to take.

[Gerald]

Hard trials are expected, on cuts.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Oberon

I would not be entirely surprised to see another era of the Colonels or at the very least some form of 'government of national unity' backed by the army before the decade is out. Not a route I want to see Greece go down, but unless something amazing happens then there are some turbulent times ahead. We keep pushing the minute hand back by a minute per bailout but it's 23:59 and the second hand is ticking and every time the minute hand is pushed back things get harder and harder for their people. You can only push so much austerity on a populace before there is a major revolution, and civil disorder that not even the police can handle. So then the army is brought in, and they face the awkward decision of what side to take.

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see military rule either but what will they do about the austerity measures?

Break free of the shackles and go alone independantly, or continue in the same vain but with a tougher stance?

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if we eventually see military rule either but what will they do about the austerity measures?

Break free of the shackles and go alone independantly, or continue in the same vain but with a tougher stance?

I would guess going independent. Accepting current path and complying with austerity demands will eventually mean cuts to military spending. I don't believe military would be ready for that especially as there is risk of revolt against their rule.