Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 156

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 06:43 AM

I use the superior devices of Soviet Design :P

On topic - I heard that new Minsk agreements were signed. I wonder if Ukrainian leadership would be capable of honoring them.

kranz · 02-12-15, 07:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Oh I don't know about that. If the Feds were to start shooting at protestors and attacking them with armored vehicles like Yanukovychs goons did they just might.

if I can add something: shooting Feds and North Korean snipers and thugs.
(Russian snipers and thugs killed/beat to death quite a few of the protestants)

Oleg Kuzminykh, the bald guy from the article/video is thrown (after he is lynched) into a car...with russian registration plates.
http://mw.ua/UKRAINE/captive-ukraini...etsk-994_.html

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 07:56 AM

Russian snipers firing out of the Maidan controlled buildings? Ok.

Lynched implies that he was murdered? Note, people in general are less than happy when they get bombarded. At least he was treated better than the separatists captured by loyalist forces (which are sometimes executed on the spot - remember that bucket video?).
Ahh, loyalists exchanging innocents ("without blood on their hands" - ie political prisoners) for their captured combat troops - yet another priceless move.

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 08:02 AM

That said, I do wonder if Ukraine would be capable of honoring the new Minsk agreements, what ever they may be, as it has failed to do so with the previous ones (for example not leaving the air port, which they have agreed to transfer to separatists), especially with the growing inability to control their own troops (especially the volunteers, such as Azov and Aidar units).

kranz · 02-12-15, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

The constitutional requirement for impeachment, at least as per the constitution that was active at the time, was for 3/4 of the parliament AND a review by Ukraine's supreme judiciary. Neither occurred. I don't doubt Yanukovich eventually would've been impeached regardless, but there's a matter of jumping the gun.

agreed. it was unconstitutional. the way communism ended in Poland in 1989 wasn't 'constitutional' either. Were Causescu and his wife executed in accordance with the constitution? Mubarak? Gaddafi? What they did was 'betray' their people. Yanukovich's case cannot be compared to the rest - because he was democratically out-voted which I already said. Call it unconstitutional - has anyone challenged this decision on the terms of its legal basis? No? Why didn't he stay and try to rescind the 'unconstitutional impeachment'? Hmm?
I agree that violating the constitution and making a precedent is not the best way to set standards...but hey, wasn't it russia who has been helping him from the very beginning? What was russia's role in suppressing the initial riots at Maidan? Hmm? Was it constitutional to ask a third party to resolve the inner issues of Ukraine (Schroeder's post above). The parliament clearly stated that the president was no longer able to fulfill his duties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

You've been trying to provoke ikalugin for a long time and I admire the fact that he's kept his cool.

what else could he do with his lies and hypocrisy? He denied that russia supported the separatists even though he was proven wrong several times by several people. After russia's involvement became so obvious that no one else in this thread could deny it, he started with another story of 'unconstitutional impeachment procedure which justified russia's intervention'. Really? Am I supposed to agree with that?
The place for liars and hypocrites is at the end of the bus.
I can even understand Skybird's way of thinking - that Ukraine is an artificial nation (which is historically true), therefore shouldn't exist. At least he doesn't deny russia's role in all that mess.

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 08:45 AM

Except there was a legal impeachment procedure, which was not enacted.

Now, why did he flee, why there was no legal resistance? Because Maidan activists have violently seized power and removed opposition by the use of force.

Was there no interference by external parties during Maidan? No, there was both legal political pressure (for Yanukovich to buckle in) from the western parties and direct support for Maidan (financial, informational and so on).
I do note however how you avoid the issue of the original association agreement, I guess there is no need to show that it was not beneficial to Ukraine (was not preperly publically studied at all, even by the Rada), as it would undermine your views.

P.s. kranz, am I on your ignore list? Just checking

P.p.s. I (as an educated person) could consider and support (within a discussion) multiple views.

Skybird · 02-12-15, 10:15 AM

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021

Old news painted in fresh colours. Check this thread from maybe spring last year. The theory that Yanukovich agents started to snipe on the Maidan, is questionable, to put it this way. Radio comm recordings seem to indicate that his security had nho clue on what was going on when the sniping started. The first shots came from buildings that at that time were under control by protesters, witnesses from the scene have confirmed. Thats the side that later claimed power for the new government that there is now.

Check this thread (150+ pages...) from earlier last year, maybe sometime during springtime, I believe I linked to it somewhere back then. But I am not certain.

It certainly was a very misty event, and I wonder whether we will ever get5 known the real truth of what happend when and why. Only that it has not been like Moscow, the West or Kiev claim - I think that we can take for granted.

kranz · 02-12-15, 10:15 AM

50 russian tanks are reported to have crossed the ukrainian border while today's negotiations were in progress.

Oberon · 02-12-15, 10:35 AM

IIRC, it started in 29th November 2013 with protesters and the standard police, the police used tear gas since a handful of protesters tried to storm a government building, and the protesters used fireworks and tear gas in return.
A day or two later was when Berkut rocked up and started smashing heads in, and that then caused riots the next day and a public building to be occupied.
After that, that was when the occupation of Maidan began in earnest, and after that was when Yanukovych started seeking help from Russia, signing in anti-protest laws, and generally trying to use any method he could to crack down on the protests. It was after that the police began shooting protestors, two died on the 21st and 22nd January 2014 from being shot by the police.
Two days later three police were injured, and five days after that the Prime Minister resigned (he'd already narrowly avoided a vote of no confidence earlier in the month). Yanukovych then pulled a sickie until 4th Feburary, which enabled him to avoid meeting with protestors or sign in laws.
On the 18th February protesters advanced on parliament, hoping to force the repeal of the anti-protesting law, and the next day a state of emergency was declared, and the Minister of Internal Affairs declared that he had signed authorisation of live ammunition to be used on the protesters, and Sergei Lavrov arrived in Kiev to see how secure the Russian embassy was, although no-one from the embassy met him, so chances are his mission was to see how stable Yanukovych was and to prepare for what was to come next.
On the 21st February, Yanukovych and parliament declared the 22nd and 23rd as days of mourning...and then he disappeared along with many of his ministers, around the same time that Klitchsko announced that he was going to vote for a no-confidence bill against Yanukovych. The bill was indeed unconstitutional, but since Yanukovych had already fled to Russia by this point it really didn't matter anymore.
Did he flee because he feared for his life? Undoubtedly, by the 21st of February it was clear that his days were numbered, he'd clung to power as long as he could but he was now isolated and his base was gone. At this point it really didn't matter what was constitutional or not because even if he'd have stayed, he would have been removed, either by the army, or eventually though a constitutional movement.
To be honest, when Yanukovych fled, officially the Euromaidan group wasn't actually in power (Klitschko was still in opposition), but the mob was close to storming and removing him by force if required, so he definitely was time limited, but he was still in power when he fled to Russia, chances are Lavrov got a message through to him that his time was up and it would be better to flee to Russia than to go down trying to have the Euromaidan group shot and then have the police and army turn on him.

Yes, it was a coup, and Yanukovych could have avoided it if he had reacted differently to the Euromaidan movement, rather than confronting it head on. Honestly, having come to power in a popular uprising himself he should have known better.

Oberon · 02-12-15, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Check this thread (150+ pages...) from earlier last year, maybe sometime during springtime, I believe I linked to it somewhere back then. But I am not certain.

The actual Maidan protests last until about page 3 or 4 of this thread, I believe.

Onkel Neal · 02-12-15, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

what what what? A Russian armed overthrow took place in Georgia? Tell me all about it! I recall it all so very different, with Saakashvili never having been out of office (to the great regret of his people whom he used clubs on later to keep them down and in line).

We had a long thread back in that year, on the Georgia war. You may want to look it up again despite its partial nastiness. I think ti even were several threads. History ran along a little different than what you indicate there. Even the tame and lame EU later found Saakashvili to have been the bad guy and liar. Why do you think he was avoided, and persona non grata since then?

And no, I am not ironic.

Ok, my error, I was thinking of the Georgian revolution me and Brian Williams led... sorry

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kranz

50 russian tanks are reported to have crossed the ukrainian border while today's negotiations were in progress.

.... By the same man that claimed the use of tactical nuclear weapons? Ahh, I was mistaken, he was talking about the Cheburashka systems (and other such pearls, I could present them if need be), it was the other guy who was talking about tactical nuclear weapons.

Skybird · 02-12-15, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

The actual Maidan protests last until about page 3 or 4 of this thread, I believe.

No, it was from some time after the events, could have been weeks or months later. It was not before some time has passed, that the radio records were published and eye witnesses also gave descriptions, the latter was what was focussed on most.

It did not make the news during the time when the Maidan events actually happened. Obviously. Such things always get revealed later on only, rarely only when they happen. But I am not scanning some dozen thread pages now. Maybe it even was a separate thread I linked it in. Anyway, it got ignored back then in the West (although it was material researched by Wetsern journalists, not Russian propaganda only) , and it will be ignored today as well. The Kiev government today must be painted in bright colours only, if you are about to throw billions and billions of Western tax payers' money after them. Thats what the minimum compromise from yesterday (if it holds, which is a very big "if") will cost us: dozens of billions.

Thank God we have gold like hay...

Onkel Neal · 02-12-15, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

what what what? A Russian armed overthrow took place in Georgia? Tell me all about it! I recall it all so very different, with Saakashvili never having been out of office (to the great regret of his people whom he used clubs on later to keep them down and in line).

We had a long thread back in that year, on the Georgia war. You may want to look it up again despite its partial nastiness. I think ti even were several threads. History ran along a little different than what you indicate there. Even the tame and lame EU later found Saakashvili to have been the bad guy and liar. Why do you think he was avoided, and persona non grata since then?

And no, I am not ironic.

Ok, I had to go refamilairize myself with this issue, re: overthrow, I was thinking about something else, but it was another territory grab by Russia.

August · 02-12-15, 06:47 PM

I doubt that Russia will take over all of the Ukraine. I'm sure they won't want Chernobyl back for instance.

02-12-15, 06:43 AM	#2326
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	I use the superior devices of Soviet Design :P On topic - I heard that new Minsk agreements were signed. I wonder if Ukrainian leadership would be capable of honoring them. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-15, 07:56 AM	#2328
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Russian snipers firing out of the Maidan controlled buildings? Ok. Lynched implies that he was murdered? Note, people in general are less than happy when they get bombarded. At least he was treated better than the separatists captured by loyalist forces (which are sometimes executed on the spot - remember that bucket video?). Ahh, loyalists exchanging innocents ("without blood on their hands" - ie political prisoners) for their captured combat troops - yet another priceless move. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-15, 08:02 AM	#2329
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	That said, I do wonder if Ukraine would be capable of honoring the new Minsk agreements, what ever they may be, as it has failed to do so with the previous ones (for example not leaving the air port, which they have agreed to transfer to separatists), especially with the growing inability to control their own troops (especially the volunteers, such as Azov and Aidar units). __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-15, 08:45 AM	#2331
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Except there was a legal impeachment procedure, which was not enacted. Now, why did he flee, why there was no legal resistance? Because Maidan activists have violently seized power and removed opposition by the use of force. Was there no interference by external parties during Maidan? No, there was both legal political pressure (for Yanukovich to buckle in) from the western parties and direct support for Maidan (financial, informational and so on). I do note however how you avoid the issue of the original association agreement, I guess there is no need to show that it was not beneficial to Ukraine (was not preperly publically studied at all, even by the Rada), as it would undermine your views. P.s. kranz, am I on your ignore list? Just checking P.p.s. I (as an educated person) could consider and support (within a discussion) multiple views. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-15, 10:15 AM	#2332
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,731 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-31359021 Old news painted in fresh colours. Check this thread from maybe spring last year. The theory that Yanukovich agents started to snipe on the Maidan, is questionable, to put it this way. Radio comm recordings seem to indicate that his security had nho clue on what was going on when the sniping started. The first shots came from buildings that at that time were under control by protesters, witnesses from the scene have confirmed. Thats the side that later claimed power for the new government that there is now. Check this thread (150+ pages...) from earlier last year, maybe sometime during springtime, I believe I linked to it somewhere back then. But I am not certain. It certainly was a very misty event, and I wonder whether we will ever get5 known the real truth of what happend when and why. Only that it has not been like Moscow, the West or Kiev claim - I think that we can take for granted. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

02-12-15, 10:15 AM	#2333
kranz The Old Man Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Poland Posts: 1,430 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	50 russian tanks are reported to have crossed the ukrainian border while today's negotiations were in progress.

02-12-15, 10:35 AM	#2334
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	IIRC, it started in 29th November 2013 with protesters and the standard police, the police used tear gas since a handful of protesters tried to storm a government building, and the protesters used fireworks and tear gas in return. A day or two later was when Berkut rocked up and started smashing heads in, and that then caused riots the next day and a public building to be occupied. After that, that was when the occupation of Maidan began in earnest, and after that was when Yanukovych started seeking help from Russia, signing in anti-protest laws, and generally trying to use any method he could to crack down on the protests. It was after that the police began shooting protestors, two died on the 21st and 22nd January 2014 from being shot by the police. Two days later three police were injured, and five days after that the Prime Minister resigned (he'd already narrowly avoided a vote of no confidence earlier in the month). Yanukovych then pulled a sickie until 4th Feburary, which enabled him to avoid meeting with protestors or sign in laws. On the 18th February protesters advanced on parliament, hoping to force the repeal of the anti-protesting law, and the next day a state of emergency was declared, and the Minister of Internal Affairs declared that he had signed authorisation of live ammunition to be used on the protesters, and Sergei Lavrov arrived in Kiev to see how secure the Russian embassy was, although no-one from the embassy met him, so chances are his mission was to see how stable Yanukovych was and to prepare for what was to come next. On the 21st February, Yanukovych and parliament declared the 22nd and 23rd as days of mourning...and then he disappeared along with many of his ministers, around the same time that Klitchsko announced that he was going to vote for a no-confidence bill against Yanukovych. The bill was indeed unconstitutional, but since Yanukovych had already fled to Russia by this point it really didn't matter anymore. Did he flee because he feared for his life? Undoubtedly, by the 21st of February it was clear that his days were numbered, he'd clung to power as long as he could but he was now isolated and his base was gone. At this point it really didn't matter what was constitutional or not because even if he'd have stayed, he would have been removed, either by the army, or eventually though a constitutional movement. To be honest, when Yanukovych fled, officially the Euromaidan group wasn't actually in power (Klitschko was still in opposition), but the mob was close to storming and removing him by force if required, so he definitely was time limited, but he was still in power when he fled to Russia, chances are Lavrov got a message through to him that his time was up and it would be better to flee to Russia than to go down trying to have the Euromaidan group shot and then have the police and army turn on him. Yes, it was a coup, and Yanukovych could have avoided it if he had reacted differently to the Euromaidan movement, rather than confronting it head on. Honestly, having come to power in a popular uprising himself he should have known better.

02-12-15, 06:47 PM	#2340
August Wayfaring Stranger Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 23,236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I doubt that Russia will take over all of the Ukraine. I'm sure they won't want Chernobyl back for instance. __________________ Flanked by life and the funeral pyre. Putting on a show for you to see.