Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 155

Oberon · 02-11-15, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schroeder

Get out of here STALKER!

Skybird · 02-11-15, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

(I have NONE on the ignore-list. We live in a democracy where we have free speech who goes both ways

Wrong. this place is owned by Neal and his rules define what goes and what not. You have no right to slam into my living room if I do not allow it, and start holding speeches to me.

You can however try to gain legal "possession" of place and time, for example renting the city hall, hold an assembly and there hold your speech.

Get the difference? Like Oberon said, you have no right to demand others needing to listen to you. And you need to own the place and the time to freely speak.

Skybird · 02-11-15, 05:23 PM

German media refer to Lavrow with saying the talks in Minsk go along "active", which would mean " better than super." There are growing rumours that a treaty could be signed tomorrow.

We will see.

If a treaty gets signed, it still needs to be obeyed, and that is the crux of the matter.

Rebel leaders also are in Minsk. Wowh. They say a seize firer would need 36 hours to come into effect along the whole front.

That Lavrow is voicing happiness with the talks so far also could be the result of the fact that any agreement Russia would find acceptable would mostly serve Russian interests, and if there is no agreement, it again serves Russian interests. They cannot lose anything in Minsk. And as Merkel said earlier last week: there is no scenario with or without weapon deliveries by the West that would impress Putin so much that he would fear that despite his superior military position he nevertheless could militarily lose this. He cannot.

Betonov · 02-11-15, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

I like how he posts another wall of text at me then runs away so he gets the last word. What a baby he is.

Like playing chess with a pigeon.
Knocks over your king, poops on the table and then flies away to brag to kindred about his victory.

August · 02-11-15, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov

Like playing chess with a pigeon.
Knocks over your king, poops on the table and then flies away to brag to kindred about his victory.

Ok now THAT is funny!

Onkel Neal · 02-11-15, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

The problem wasn't that thousands of people were protesting, the problem was that the protests eventually turned violent and completely shut out a different side to this conflict. There is a line between the Tea Party organizing an anti-Obama march in Washington, and the Tea Party staying on the Mall, forming a militia, and engaging in gunfights with the PD, Secret Service, FBI, DHS, or whoever else came to clear them out.

I'm not defending Yanukovich at all and I don't doubt for a second that protesting his regime's corruption, flaky policies, and poor decisions re: economic cooperation with Europe was a good cause. But there's a line. At the end of the day, thousands of loud angry people with support in parliament are still not "The People". The problem is that however you slice it, this was an unconstitutional way of creating government change, and it forever alienated what was, and still is, a very large population of the Eastern Ukraine that are less "pro-Russian" and more "pro-themselves". Just as anywhere, the point of constitutional government is to serve the interest of more than just one group or ideology. What would you say if the Tea Party one day stormed the White House and declared the president impeached? And I'd even agree that they'd have a point but still, that is not how you do things in a constitutional way.

That was the breakdown point in this crisis. It cut off constitutional means of resolving it within the Ukraine, and showed interested parties - including Russia - that they had to protect their interests with other means. I'm not even justifying those interests, but I have to agree with ikalugin there - this is where the escalation came from. And in this way, it absolutely does parallel many "regime change" scenarios where the West had acted no better than Russia, from the POV of international law, making it easy for Russia to help themselves to Crimea and act like it was their right.

I thought armed overthrow of the government was sort of business as usual in that part of the world?

Isn't that what Russia did in Georgia a few years back? But I understand your point, although it is a stretch imagining the Tea Party or any US group taking a shot at storming the WH, don't you agree?

So the escalation came from the overwhelming popular support of deposing a democratically elected head of state. I agree, that's not the best way to reorganize the government. Still, and I am not very up to speed on this, being from Texas and all, but still, this really looks like the Russian SOP. If Merkel is not able to put the brakes on Putin, I'm betting on tanks in Kiev by summer. I just hope Obama's timidness pays off for once and the US stays out of this mess.

Hey, I appreciate the time you take in your rebuttles, CCIP. I probably learn more about this situation from you, ikalugin, and kranz than I do from the mainstream media

August · 02-11-15, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

...although it is a stretch imagining the Tea Party or any US group taking a shot at storming the WH, don't you agree?

Oh I don't know about that. If the Feds were to start shooting at protestors and attacking them with armored vehicles like Yanukovychs goons did they just might.

Onkel Neal · 02-11-15, 07:20 PM

Well, ok, yeah that's true! Is that what happened in Kiev?

Oh, and Sky, just because August doesn't agree with you and can match your arguments, is no reason to ignore him. You should give him some credit, he has a credible pov.

August · 02-11-15, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Well, ok, yeah that's true! Is that what happened in Kiev?

Oh yeah That and more. Far more ham fisted than the Feds have been since the Indian wars.

Onkel Neal · 02-11-15, 07:36 PM

It's going to be ok, the Russian dictator is moving towards peace, according to Time.

Quote:

Putin’s Push for Peace Renews Hopes for a Ceasefire in Ukraine

Throughout the conflict in eastern Ukraine, Russian President Vladimir Putin has tried hard to keep himself apart from the warring sides. He has neither met publicly with the leaders of Ukraine’s pro-Russian separatist rebellion nor engaged in a formal round of peace talks with their enemies in the Ukrainian government. The Kremlin, he insists, is not a party to the conflict. Which is what makes the latest round of peace talks feel weightier, if not also more hopeful, than the previous ones.

Yeah, wow. Little wonder so few trust the MSM. Time calls the pitch and it's a strike.

http://time.com/3704897/putin-peace-ukraine-minsk/

Skybird · 02-11-15, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

I thought armed overthrow of the government was sort of business as usual in that part of the world?

Isn't that what Russia did in Georgia a few years back?

what what what? A Russian armed overthrow took place in Georgia? Tell me all about it! I recall it all so very different, with Saakashvili never having been out of office (to the great regret of his people whom he used clubs on later to keep them down and in line).

We had a long thread back in that year, on the Georgia war. You may want to look it up again despite its partial nastiness. I think ti even were several threads. History ran along a little different than what you indicate there. Even the tame and lame EU later found Saakashvili to have been the bad guy and liar. Why do you think he was avoided, and persona non grata since then?

And no, I am not ironic.

Skybird · 02-11-15, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

It's going to be ok, the Russian dictator is moving towards peace, according to Time.

Yeah, wow. Little wonder so few trust the MSM. Time calls the pitch and it's a strike.

http://time.com/3704897/putin-peace-ukraine-minsk/

LINK: Maskirovka

"Russians don't take a dump, son, without a plan."

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 02:57 AM

Actually we don't have a plan. The whole system is very subjective and is based on feeling the path that your superior wishes for.

kranz, CCIP has a valid point - technically impeachment was not conducted properly, so it was a violent and illegal/undemocratic take over of power.

P.s. I don't block anyone, as after all I am not forced to read the posts if I don't want to. And damn Skybird makes those text walls, they feel like a minefield encountered by an advancing tnk division.

ikalugin · 02-12-15, 03:21 AM

Neal, CCIP is probably the most objectively balanced poster on this topic. I use his and Skybird's broad shoulders to hide behind :p.

That said, what we could try to discuss, is in which way the West could help the CTO Forces military and Ukraine in general, without considering the political long term consequences.

Oberon · 02-12-15, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

they feel like a minefield encountered by an advancing tnk division.

Thank God for Captain du Toit!

02-11-15, 05:23 PM	#2313
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,731 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	German media refer to Lavrow with saying the talks in Minsk go along "active", which would mean " better than super." There are growing rumours that a treaty could be signed tomorrow. We will see. If a treaty gets signed, it still needs to be obeyed, and that is the crux of the matter. Rebel leaders also are in Minsk. Wowh. They say a seize firer would need 36 hours to come into effect along the whole front. That Lavrow is voicing happiness with the talks so far also could be the result of the fact that any agreement Russia would find acceptable would mostly serve Russian interests, and if there is no agreement, it again serves Russian interests. They cannot lose anything in Minsk. And as Merkel said earlier last week: there is no scenario with or without weapon deliveries by the West that would impress Putin so much that he would fear that despite his superior military position he nevertheless could militarily lose this. He cannot. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 02-11-15 at 05:33 PM.

02-11-15, 07:20 PM	#2318
Onkel Neal Born to Run Silent Join Date: Jan 1997 Location: Cougar Trap, Texas Posts: 21,385 Downloads: 541 Uploads: 224	Well, ok, yeah that's true! Is that what happened in Kiev? Oh, and Sky, just because August doesn't agree with you and can match your arguments, is no reason to ignore him. You should give him some credit, he has a credible pov. __________________ SUBSIM - 26 Years on the Web

02-12-15, 02:57 AM	#2323
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Actually we don't have a plan. The whole system is very subjective and is based on feeling the path that your superior wishes for. kranz, CCIP has a valid point - technically impeachment was not conducted properly, so it was a violent and illegal/undemocratic take over of power. P.s. I don't block anyone, as after all I am not forced to read the posts if I don't want to. And damn Skybird makes those text walls, they feel like a minefield encountered by an advancing tnk division. __________________ Grumpy as always.

02-12-15, 03:21 AM	#2324
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Neal, CCIP is probably the most objectively balanced poster on this topic. I use his and Skybird's broad shoulders to hide behind :p. That said, what we could try to discuss, is in which way the West could help the CTO Forces military and Ukraine in general, without considering the political long term consequences. __________________ Grumpy as always.