Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[mapuc]

Propaganda everywhere even among us.

A friend had posted something about the crisis and a friend of him wrote

"USA and the EU behind the crisis in Ukraine"

I ask that person for a link

I got a link...some left wings stuff "Lavrov: USA and EU behind..."

Friends may give me links to article about the crisis, but those reports has to be independent otherwise I want read them.

Markus

[Betonov]

This is a time when Slovenia could have shined.
A small country, pro Western and pro Russian, acting as an honest broker between two sides...

Nope, because our diplomats couldn't broker a transaction in Mcdonalds

[Respenus]

You decide on its independence by yourself, but the following blog follows the conflict/war in Ukraine in great detail and does provide solid proof in form of pictures, videos and map analysis.

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.ca/

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Propaganda everywhere even among us.
A friend had posted something about the crisis and a friend of him wrote
"USA and the EU behind the crisis in Ukraine"

It is basically a civil war, with some people being of russian descent there, and some others wanting to join the EU (but do not like their own "president" using Nazi thugs to keep control). Don't believe right wing media are less biased. There is also some truth with "The West" having interests in the Ukraine.

The "Ukraine" is a WW2-construct, created by the german army. There are different peoples with different descent, and political wants.
I still wonder why the back-then Soviet Union let it be that way, directly after WW2.

From Wiki:

"During the military occupation of Ukraine by Nazi Germany, a large number of Ukrainians chose to cooperate with the Nazis. Reasons for this generally included resurgent Ukrainian nationalism, aspirations for Independence and widespread anger and resentment against the Russians over the Holodomor, which occurred only a few years before. These were coupled with rampant racism towards other ethnic groups (such as Jews, Tatars, Roma peoples and Poles) as well as a prevailing sentiment of antisemitism. However, the absence of Ukrainian autonomy under the Nazis, mistreatment by the occupiers, and the deportation of hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians as slave laborers, soon led to a rapid change in the attitude among the collaborators.
By the time the Red Army returned to Ukraine, a significant number of the population welcomed its soldiers as liberators.[1] More than 4.5 million Ukrainians joined the Red Army to fight Nazi Germany, and more than 250,000 served in Soviet partisan paramilitary units.["

Take your choice and choose your side. Both aren't pretty.
it should be clear though, what the West has in mind.

Greetings,
Catfish

[August]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I agree but tell John McCain that. No offense to Americans here but I think this is something that will be made worse with more weapons. Positions are so entrenched in both sides. There has to be a compromise, rebels give up ideas for a separate state and possibly some short of federalist structure. Also NATO should be of the table. What gets me over the whole thing is the hypocrisy.

It's difficult to ignore a friendly nations pleas for help against outside aggression. If it were just them against their rebels it would be one thing but why should one side be helped and not the other?

[CCIP]

One word: escalation. I'm not sure it can even be avoided at this point, but I really don't think that's a good idea. Which is why I'd rather see some sort of long-term ceasefire worked out first if possible. The present situation is not good for Ukraine's government at all, but I don't think there's any risk of Russian or separatist tanks on the streets of Kiev anytime soon. The situation in the Donetsk region is bad but it's still not all-out war. There's not going to be a military solution to it without a massive escalation - and is that really what we want?

There's no immediate national security threat to the US being posed by this right now. On the other hand, if this conflict gets escalated further, you're going to see a much uglier situation.

Second peripheral reason: I'm not sure I consider arming what is clearly a failed state and a failed military a good idea. This has been already tried in Pakistan. Considering who much of the heavy fighting is done by in the Ukraine (i.e. the volunteer battalions who are not even accountable to the central government, and in some cases openly extremist), I don't think it's a good idea giving them weapons period. That's also been tried in Syria by trying to arm Assad's enemies, and now many of these weapons seem to be in the hands of ISIS.

What they really need to focus on instead is stabilizing Ukraine's civil economy and help it assert a functioning statehood, fixing their infrastructure and military organization in the process. For the moment this is still a low-level conflict, and escalating it will help nobody. I think this is actually a great opportunity for the West to make an ally of Ukraine. Doing it by escalating a war on their territory is not a good, sustainable way of doing that.

[CCIP]

(and to be fair, all of this is moot point anyway - I think this escalation is going to happen whether we like it or not, but I don't think we need to be especially excited or supportive of it. It's not doing anybody any good.)

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by CCIP

It's not doing anybody any good.)

I guess the companies producing and selling weapons and their shareholders would tend to disagree. There is always a profit for someone in war.

[mapuc]

I found this article in Danish Radio News

(have used Google translate)

Headlines
Putin raging against the West but rejects it ends with war

text
Russia does not want to go to war with others, but do not accept changes to the world order, it said.

There is no desire on the Russian side to start a war against anyone, Russian President Vladimir Putin said, according to Reuters.

But the president has in connection stressed that a world order where a single "leader" tells the others what to do, is not in the Russian interest.

- The West is trying to disrupt the world order

Saturday's comments are the first from Vladimir Putin, after his Friday night has been in prolonged negotiations with the German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President François Hollande to find an end to the crisis in Ukraine.

- There is obviously an attempt to limit our development by different means.

- There is an attempt to disrupt the existing world order (...) with an undeniable leader who would like to stay that way and have an expectation of being allowed everything, while others only have to do it, as he allows, and that only is in his interest, says Vladimir Putin.

the Russian interest rejects any notion of war
The Russian president should have continued to say that even if such a world order will not fall into good, Russian taste, so Russia will not go to war with anyone

- We will work with all, the president said during a meeting in the city of Sochi in Russia.

The comment from Vladimir Putin is on the same day as the world's security are debated at a conference in Munich.

From Danish Radio/
AFP / Reuters

your saying on that ?

Markus

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Betonov

This is a time when Slovenia could have shined.
A small country, pro Western and pro Russian, acting as an honest broker between two sides...

Nope, because our diplomats couldn't broker a transaction in Mcdonalds

I can help Slovenia with that!
What is one Jalapeno McDouble and an iced hazelnut coffee FTW.
You're welcome.

[ikalugin]

CCIP, I think this could be nkw viewed as a high intensity but low density war, especially when considering the spring campaign, as the separatists have found an air museum. That and the mobilisation efforts by the separatists.

[CCIP]

Meanwhile, if anyone still doubts whether this is a cold war scenario - latest polls from the Levada center in Russia show that 82% of Russians view the US negatively, and 71% view Europe negatively. 42% of Russians describe the US as "hostile".

A similar poll from early January by Pew Research in the west found that 72% of Americans and 74% of Europeans view Russia unfavorably.

Notably, in the past year these numbers have jumped by more than twice on both sides. Was Crimea really worth this?

[ikalugin]

If "party line" was to change suddenly then so would the opinion of Russian people. We are quite disciplined in that way. And yes, East Asia was always our enemy.

Crimea was a result, not the cause.

[XabbaRus]

I still worry how this is going to end. I'll be ok in the UK but I worry for my in-laws in Moscow being pensioners they are feeling the pinch.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I still worry how this is going to end. I'll be ok in the UK but I worry for my in-laws in Moscow being pensioners they are feeling the pinch.

Same, but at the same time, at this point I also feel like a thorough collapse of the Russian economic (and with it, political) system is one of the only ways anything is going to change. I know it's a bit of a perverse thought since all my relatives and extended family are there, but I really don't know what else will change it. I guess that makes me one of those evil western-sympathising emigrants, but I honestly don't know what else will take Russia off the collision course with the West. Certainly not the current regime, who only seem to feed off the growing antagonism.