Europe's migrant problem

[ikalugin]

On some other forum it was mentioned that EU may attempt to create a buffer zone in Med, to slow down the refugee flow.

What is the opinion regarding it here?

[ikalugin]

Realistically EU can soak up any likely refugee flow and absorb it, the problem could occur if that refugee flow was directed in it's entirety to some sort of small EU member, such as Norway.
Otherwise ethnic balance could not be radically changed, though ofc there is that nigh impossible worst case scenario where EU receives atleast 30+ m immigrants and those show african style birth rates with EU style mortality over 3 generations without being assimilated into local culture/way of life.

[CCIP]

I also agree that a flood of refugees is not sustainable and we need solutions other than just "let them in" - that's a very short-term "fix" if a fix at all. Yeah, this isn't going to be easy. But I think what's needed is responsible politics, not a kneejerk reaction to the "barbarian hordes" that are about to make Europe collapse or something.

[Rockstar]

Was doing some figerin'.

Germany is 137,847 square miles and is just a little smaller than the Great State of Montana which has an area of 147,042 square miles. Population wise Germany has 80.62 million people which is slightly more than California, Texas and Florida combined. Montana has a population of only 1.02 million

Dang its get tin crowded over there. Maybe you should move over here Skybird. There's still strong traditional German populations residing in Minnesota, Wisconsin and points in the mid west area. Everyone lives in a haus with a maus and if you live on the lake you can sail your boot too! And nobody will make fun of your accent, you'll fit right in.

[mapuc]

Here's a story from Denmark

We had a little refugees crisis-until the refugees found a direct way to Sweden.

Many known people went out to help these refugees and after they had done this they wrote about this on FB they wrote how good they are etc

Makes me wonder, why these people didn't do the right thing-travel to one of many refugees camp in the Middle east and help them down there-they are, in my perspective, people who are in desperate need.

Markus

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Here's a story from Denmark

We had a little refugees crisis-until the refugees found a direct way to Sweden.

Many known people went out to help these refugees and after they had done this they wrote about this on FB they wrote how good they are etc

Makes me wonder, why these people didn't do the right thing-travel to one of many refugees camp in the Middle east and help them down there-they are, in my perspective, people who are in desperate need.

Markus

Because they are desparate, afraid, tired of war, poverty, and have strong desire to start a new life. I've witness such desparation the dangers and risks people attempted to overcome just to get to the land of the Super Walmart and Big Gulp. But when we caught them we still burned their boats and repatriated them. Even those who were 'feet dry' were rounded up and sent to detention centers, interogated to determine their status. Very few made it, the rest were sent back.

It sucks, buts thats the law.


btw who said we are running out of room? I know I said we have a huge land mass that buffers us from mass immigration such as Mariel 1 and 2,

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Bubbles - "Sign should read NO VACANCY now.Not being inhumane, just can not take in every stray with a sad luck story in the world.US nor most European nations can."

Also "I am not an immigrant.True some ancestors were, long ago.Different time and world then, country needed people, now we are full, no room."

All one has to do is turn off the TV and hike through the Appalachian Trail to see with their own eyes how vast this country is.

Heck we're immigrants. Besides my dad, my brother and I are the first on his side of the family to have a surname. I welcome all immigrants just not the illegal ones. Do it right or go home we dont have room for 'illegal' immigrants.
Should also add I didnt mean to imply Miami today is a bad thing. Cuban immigrants made it into a vibrant, unique city. Wouldnt want to raise a family there but if I was still single thats the place to be.

[mapuc]

Just some month ago many refugees and immigrant seeked asylum in Denmark. Denmark and Sweden were the two country taking many of these.

Now when Denmark has cut the social-benefit with almost 50 % for newcomer and they have to wait a year before the can get a relative from the country where they are from.

The amount of refugees has got down a lot.

About 80-90 percentage of them who crossed the Danish-German border was on their way to Sweden and they did everything I mean everything to avoid being registered by the Danish Police.

Now Sweden has the highest social benefit for newcomers among the Scandinavian countries.

Makes one wonder.

Here's another thing. A Danish Journalist meet a group refugees who was walking on a Danish freeway.

He asked them way they was on the way to Sweden and these refugees said it strait-They avoid Denmark due to the low benefit and that they had to wait a whole year-

They know our social laws better than I do.

Markus

[Rockstar]

You're right our process needs work too. Our adopted daughter had to endure years of a hellish bereaucratic nightmare to finally gain her citizenship. Which is all the more reason I and others who have gone through it to say NO to illegal immigrantion and amnesty. Stand in line like the rest of us.

If I remember correctly whenever we came across illegal immigrants upon the high seas. Unless it was a weekend the Department of State usually didn't take long to order us to repatriate them. If however the immigrants made into the territorial seas or were feet dry. In those instances they were all detained and interogated /interviewed to determine their status, all were given the opportunity to state their case. But as I said before very few made past the interogation and were given a one way ticket back to thier homeland

My invitation to Skybird or anyone for that matter still stands. Just dont try sneaking over here or I'll have to git ma shootin' iron out.

[ikalugin]

I think that in terms of being conservative and vast you can't really compete.

[Torplexed]

Maybe we should grab some Syrians and see if we can resettle the American Chernobyl on the Detroit River. Cheap housing and you can keep all the zombies you shoot.

[Rockstar]

well if you were an immigrant and you had a choice between the above in Detriot or allmannytta. You would be heading to Sweden like the rest.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Well said.



Dr Pepper actually, and I had a nice kebab earlier. How about that for cross-cultural boundaries?

Can't go wrong with the Doctor

[ikalugin]

This discussion and some minor key research into the topic lead me to a certain book called "flashback". It's troll value cannot be understated.

[Skybird]

This thread is misnamed:

By the end of the year over one million - the population of a city like Cologne - will have arrivbed here, per million per year costing the equivaölent of one third of the German defense budget, around 11 billion minimum. Over here, expropriation of halls and houses and state-enforced renting of flats is discussed, the government denies that now since more and more criticism by non-socialists is being met. The federal states and counties are at their very limits or beyond with handling, organising and financing the immense input. Economists say the massive influx - with more millions wanting to come from Eritrea, Ethopia, Sudan, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and all other places where they heard the story about the German sky that rains milk and honey for free - can only be paid for without inmcraisng the state debts if people work longer in their life and pension age gets pushed back by one or two years.

Its not Europe's migration problem, Neal. Its Germany's migration problem in the main. These people come to stay, and they seek not just shelter from war, but also better living conditions, at the same time many of them come from regions where they were socilaised by the highly politicised Arab form of Islam, and from states were they learnt to deeply mistrust corrupted civil order an state authority. Imagine what all that together means for the chances of "integration". Even more when you learn that the salafists, whose numbers have multiplied in past years in germany and who do extremely successful missionising in Germany, already have started to infiltrate refugee groups and camps and recruiting there.

BTW, the Saudi offer to build 200 mosques in germany, is older news over here, one week old or so, and as a matter of fact the original proposal by the Saudis sounded like a demand for being permitted to build them - with a threat of implying that not allowing that would be a crime against humanity. Primitive barbaric cynical bastards they are. You are still threatened with execution if as a traveller you go there with a bible for exclusively private use in your luggage.

Study the Roman empire, and how it was overrun in the 5th century when Germanic vasalls ended their loyalty to Rome and huge numbers of Germanic people moved southward in their escape from poverty and hunger. It finally overburdened the Roman culture and eroded its power of resistence from within. And gone was Rome. The present events compare to that in numerical scale, and meaning.

Germany bit more off than it can chew. Merkel, this FdJ-propaganda bitch that suffocates Germany since over ten years now, all by herself suddenly declared the Dublin rules as being temporarily invalid, (Dublin rules mean asylum seekers must register and file their request for asylum in the EU country where they first set foot onto EU soil). She did not even tell her sister party, the CSU in bavaria, before, which now is very seriously pissed and starts a real big rumble in the kitchen. Merkel kicked open the floodgates needlessly and in violation of valid EU legal standards and treaties, naively assuming she could close them at any time again when she wants that. Well, the internet she still understands to be a miraculous new technology, she said in a interview. She lives on the dark side of the moon.

Much of Orban's criticism - and mockery! - for Germany, is correct, his mockery is well-deserved. The opening of the floodgates is Germany'S fault indeed - and I fear there is no way we can recover from that. We should have followed the Norwegians' example - instead Merkel decided to follow the Swedish exmaple, and that was the worst choice possible, the Swedish attempt to deal with integrating the huge Muslim influx it allowed naively and prematurely, has failed on a spectacular level, giving them more and more hell at home. France, England, Holland, also struggled and failed to deal with this special issue that is unique not for all immoigration to Europe, but precisely with the Muslim immigration into Europe. I can fully understand the scepticism and stubborn resistence of the Easterneuropean nations and people. They have my sympathy on this issue, I think they are fully right. No wonder that Germany's claim to "lead" once again is rejected. They would be stupid if they would follow the German example.

Nobody has any right, there is no human right to move into another, foreign culture where historically grown communities have claimed land and home and exist since long, no right to enforce his way into them and then tell them: "Here I am, now you are obliged to deal with me." Such a right does not exist, it would mean the total denial of any right for private property and own identity. It is as if any stranger rings at your door and demands that from now on you let him live in one room of your flat. The decision to allow that, is yours, and exclusively yours, however - NO MATTER WHAT. The other's life is not your life, he does not own you, you do not owe to him by the mere fact alone that you exist- to think that would mean you think of yourself as somebody else's slave. Nor has the other any claim for the fruits of your labour, your efforts, your history, your decendance, your biography. Such "humk,an rgihts" do not exist. Their claimed content to me is a crime in itself.

Germans currently are drunk of themselves, wallowing in upspiking emotions. Merkel has suffocated us since one decade, her claim for mpower is the only purpose and aim of politcal deciison making, there are no principles beyonds that and all challengers and competitors who could disagree with here, have been eliminated already years ago, all political themes that once were the opposition'S, have been seized by her. There is nothing left beside and behind her, nothing. To now name this political style of pure opportunism and arbitrariness as "Merkelianism", indeed is justified. The result is mental stagnation and paralysis, we are happy to live by the illusion to be endlessly safe and endlessly happy. Of course that is an infantile self-deception. The constant state of emergrency over "We need to save the Euro", "We need to save the EU", "We need to save the Energiewende", "We need to save the climate", "We need to save the refugees", implies a collectivistic imperative that outlaws every opinion that is critically asking questions and does not fully agree that being part of the "we" is good and thus everybody not participating is bad, and that "saving" all that is the holy mission that is not to be put into question even if it is very clear that the task is too big to be shouldwered. This is in principle the essence of fascism. "Saving" has a positive connotation, and thus not wanting to participate in the "saving" turns you into a dubious outlaw and bad guy that gets demonised and chased through the media like a witch in some fanatical village's streets. Denial of reality, ignorration of the limits of what can be shouldered and can be done, are trump, rational thinking and sober assessment with a strong sense of realism is not wanted - to "feel" what must be done is what moves the crowds and masses. Mass hysteria, in other words. Empathy, if being ordered by superior authorities, always has this implication of being a totalitarian, suppressive thing, and it is no real empathy at all, but servile obedience to the state that especially Germans so strongly believe in - the more state, the better, if the German subordinate gets not strictly regulated by state authority at leats once a day, then he feels he lacks something vital, this poor submissive dog. It makes me sick. Two socialist dictatorships in germany within 70 years, two generations - and nothing being learnt, nothing remembered, now embracing the third socialist desaster unfolding, after Hitler-brown and Stalin-red now EU-multi-coloured. Stupid plebs. I dispise it.

This is my translation from the German original, excerpt of a work by one of Germany's past great spirits and poets, Friedrich Schiller, a man inspired by his love for and will to fight for freedom.:

"For the moral beauty of action, freedom of will is an inevitable precondition, but this freedom is easily destroyed in the very moment when virtue should be enforced by laws and penalties. The most noble prerogative of nature is to decide by and for itself and to do what is of goodness for the mere sake of goodness itself. No civil law shall demand and enforce loyalty to your friends, generosity for your enemies, thankfulness for your father and mother, since the ver ymonent such a demand is made, a free moral sentience turns into a construct of fear, into a slavish impulse. "

*****
The simple truth is: the more welcoming you make Europe for refugees, the more will come. The safer you make the journey, the more will come. The more you will to let your morals being turned against you and into a tool to blackmail your obedience to the events, the more will come. The more you delay and waver determined action to enforce a halt, the morer will come.

And if you allow your morals being turned into a tool to blackmail your obedience - what tells that about yourself? Nothing I would ever applaude you for, that much at least is certain.
*****

The longer this all last, the more the word will make the global round, and the more will come. Motivations will change. Were first escape from war and persecution was sought, newly formed and growing demands for higher living standards will replace those motivations. It already is the problem right now. Syrians in Iraq already claim the same motivation to now also move to Germany, like "refugees" from the Balkans - money.

60 million poeple currently are on the move, fleeing war. The German action ahs invited and motivated people in Eritrea, Ethopia, Sudan, Jemen, that until now had no real idea to move to Germany especially, or just to move to Europe at all. Add to those 60 milion war refugees several times as many that want to move to Europe and Germany for seeking just higher living conditions. And then go figure. Before you leave it to parroting ideological claims like "they have the right", and "we have a social(istic) responsibility", think twice. And then think again, and again, until you get it right. Both claims are wrong. For some of the disaster sin the world, we must share respnsibility, and ehre we have to help - locally, obviously, and only if we really can achieve somehting for the better. Ther arab revolution has backfired, so that definitely was a lousy idea. Still the solution cannot be to bring the middle east and its backwardly clture and habits to East Germany, or to culturally enrich the Alpine panorama with the towers of mosques where they belong as much as the dome of cologne belongs to the Nile (as long as the Saudis would not run amok), or to make 5.5 million Fins happy by sending 500 thousand Muslims to them.

The longer Germans deny the truth - the heavier the burden they will feel, the more drastic the consequences for ther Geman civil society and home culture and identity will be. And lets not be mistaken. We talk about millions wanting to come. MILLIONS and millions. Many activists and politicians still have not understood that.

The Middle East as we have known it for the past half of a century, is a thing of a past, it collapses under the mistakes made deacdes ago, and being renewed just years ago. We feel the revenge from the stupidity by which the war in 2003 was brought loose, and was implemented, without the total disempowerment of the Bathist party and the Sunni ethnicity in Iraq (Ifollowing the example of denazification) and their social deprivation of rights by the Shia corrupt regimes following, IS hardly would have been imaginable, and without the European arrogance to destabilise parts fo the Middle East by demanding it to follow Western - and not any less corrupted - government models, their would have been no "Arab Spring" nightmare. Half of the region is a battlefield, what remains in structure is under threat of collapsing, too, Israel is in danger of getting swept away by the self-dynamic of the change, too. And still we have nothing better to do than to criticise the Russians for assisting Assad, obviously Washington still thinks the battle against IS will fight itself. All Wetsern clever thinking about the egiuon, the high-flying plans both from Washington and Europe - they all have failed, and terribly so. Has anyone learnt from that to lower his voice? No. Still the same old paroles, still the same old demands that are so totally disconnected from the realities on the ground.

And while Germany must expect that millions (pluiral) are heading here over the coming years, it is being debated about cosmetic air strikes here and there that mean NOTHING in the big picture, and a big media coverage for conferences about whether or not 80,000 people shall be distributed amongst EU nations. We would be glad in Germany if only it were not more than 80,000.

No historically grown cultural identity can digest such a monumental influx without getting seriously changed and maybe eroded by it. But germans were taught after WWII to never like national pride and feel national identity anymore, never. So maybe this fate of self-denial and self-deconstruction indeed fits them right - as long as nobody looks back beyond 1933, the starting year of Geman history in modern German'S understanding. But when you realise that there were already many centuries of German history before 1933, then you see the losses of the many beautiful and remarkable things that German culture also had to offer, once. And then you can only cry. But that will be dealt with, too. German schools have started in several federal states to skip history lessons from the curriculum. Was man nicht weiß, das macht einen nicht heiß.

Sorry, no, I don't feel multiculturally enriched, not at all. I feel betrayed and robbed. To hell with this modern carricature of a "Germany".

It is ironic that despite earlier disagreements I have the impression that maybe only Rockstar really has an idea of what I am about.

Anyway, one long essay per year must serve enough these days. See you again in 2016.

Until then, this piece, although in German, is a real damn good read:
LINK: State-ordered empathy is BS