LuftWolf and Amizaur's Realism Mod Poll #11: Adv. Torpedoes

[OKO]

great
sorry I post so much little thread, but I didn't read this forum for some times (I was away) and actually try to answer things I know as I read the whole thing.

[LuftWolf]

All you need to do is go to the CADC and download the playtest.

And then let me know what you think.

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=29521

To Install: Unzip the file into your main DW directory allowing the unzip program to overwrite all files and install to the correct directories.
This playtest should be considered a beta. It combines LWAMI 3.02 with the following changes:
Advanced Torpedo Control Mod for UGST and ADCAP:
Set the torpedo to fire as normal. If you don't use the wire commands, it will behave as always. The wirecontrol commands are now as follows. Note, you must wait at least a second of game time between clicks, but it is possible to hit the button several times to go through the cycle quickly. A single preenable click will preenable the torpedo if it is enabled or do nothing. A second preenable click will send the torpedo to the preset search depth. A third click will send the torpedo to the ceiling. A fourth click will send the torpedo back to launch depth. The enable button works as follows. A single enable click will set the torpedo speed to 40kts and enable the passive sensor. A second click will enable the active seeker on the torpedo and set the speed to max speed. Further clicks of the enable button have no effect on the torpedo unless it is preenabled again, and then the behavior is reset to the beginning of the enable cycle.
WireBreak Mod:
Wires are now limited in range and ownship maneovering parameters. The ADCAP has a 10nm internal wire and a 5nm wire on the launching platform. If the torpedo or ownship travel farther than those distance FROM THE LAUNCH POINT, or if the range between ownship and the torpedo exceeds that distance, the wire will break. The UGST has a 25km internal wire and a 5km wire on the launching platform. Additionally, if the opening speed between ownship and the torpedo exceeds about 60kts for the ADCAP or 55kts for the UGST, with ownship movement accounting for no more than 20kts of that calculation, the wire will break. These maneovering measurements are unintentionally fuzzy, however, it is something that occurs naturally that I was going to build in anyway, so it works nicely. :-) What this means in practical terms is that a slow running torpedo gives the launching platform much more flexibility in maneovering the ship, whereas a torpedo running at maxspeed is much more prone to a maneovering-related wirebreak. NOTE: When the wire is broken, its broken. However, sometimes the interface will momentarily display the torpedo as preenabled, but it reenables soon enough not to effect the game in any way. The only unfinished part is that you can still shutdown the torpedo even after the wire is broken... we can't take this out. However, it is very minor, in my opinion, seeing as the user would typically reload his tube after the wires are broken anyway. ;-)
Advanced UUV Mod:
The UUV is much more quiet now, and is very hard to detect without cavitation. The passive sensor has been reduced in sensitivity considerably and the active sensor has been disabled completely (mostly because its broken in DW 1.03). The UUV now has a range of 32km and max speed of 20kts, with the sensors effective up to 6-8kts, with washout above 6kts. The operation is as follows. You must be at 4kts as before, and enter the presets in the same way. After firing the weapon it will begin to feed back data immediately and move at 4kts. The speed of the UUV is controlled with the enable button and the depth is controlled with the preenable button. The preenable button has no effect on the passive sensor. One click of the enable button will stop the UUV; it can persist indefinately in this state (although I will most likely have a timer on it in the full version), a second click will speed the UUV up to 6kts. A third click of the enable button will speed the UUV up to 12kts, the max speed the UUV can travel in up to 90ft of water without cavitating. A fourth click of the enable button and the UUV will go to its max speed of 20kts. A fifth click will stop the UUV and reset the counter, although you can click the enable button twice slowly and set it to 6kts. Note the sensors are washout above 8kts and do not feed data. The preenable button depth control works as follows. A single click does nothing. A second preenable click will send the UUV to the preset search depth. A third preenable click will send the UUV to 90ft if it is in over 100ft of water or 45ft if it is in less than 100ft of water. A fourth click will send the UUV back to launch depth, and reset the cycle.
SLAM-ER and Misc. Missiles:
The SLAM-ER now works for ASuW use and will enable a radar seeker at the last waypoint if it is over water. If the last waypoint is over land, the missile will operate in Strike mode, and behave as a light TLAM. The missile has a stealth enable feature that sends it down to just above the ocean before enabling and then after enabling it rising back to its cruising altitude of 30ft. Note, the standard harpoon has also been giving this cruising altitude, and the flight profiles of various missiles have been lowered. Also, the standard SLAM has been fixed and equipped on the AI P-3 as a land attack missile because the AI can't use the SLAM-ER properly. The AI P-3 does carry the Harpoon for ASuW. The Harpoon and the SLAM-ER both have a 40 Radar PSL, which is very low.
Helicopters:
I have attempted to fixed several problems like crashing and reporting contacts at launch, as well as dragging the active dipping sonar. Please use the FFG AI MH60 as well as observe helo behavior in general. :-) Also, the MH60 no longer launches with its radar on. :-)
CIWSAttack Doctrine has been updated to give better intercept performance will allowing for appropriate missile conservation for sustained attacks.
I made a minor change to the TLAM doctrine to make sure it always explode near the target as opposed to disappearing if it overshoots.
The Random Direction Torpedo Mod has been disabled for all torpedoes to allow more predictable subroc and AI MH60 weapon delivery. The torpedoes will always go to the right upon enabling.
The Hull array of the SW has been changed to simulate what we believe to be more close to the actual sonar suite on the SW. The Hull array on the SeaWolf now represents a low frequency receiver with coverage slightly larger than the Sphere array and with the same geometry. The frequency sensitivity and and washout speed remain as before. This sonar suite should be very helpful for tracking evading targets and as well as for all situaions in the littorals where the TA cannot operate.
The Maxspeed of the MPT torpedo payload on the SS-N-27 ASW has been reduced from 55kts to 45kts. This is done partially because the torpedo probably is closer to that speed as well as to reduce the effectiveness of the SS-N-27 relative to the new torpedoes behavior.
That's it!
Please play the heck out of this, specifically looking into these things I have mentioned here and provide as much feedback as you can through the usual channels. :-)
Cheers,
David
LW

[OKO]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

Are you sure ?

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/lmrs.htm

[OKO]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

So you don't think something with an electric motor the size of a torpedo could go 20kts?

Of course, not with its sensors working, at least with reasonable sensitivity.

reasonable sensitivity mean totally blind at this speed ... for subs
I guess it's the same for UUV.

[OKO]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

All you need to do is go to the CADC and download the playtest.

And then let me know what you think.

http://www.orionwarrior.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=29521

thx a lot LW
I will test this great work this WE

[OKO]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

How does a dipping sonar or sonobuoy overcome even more restrictive size limitations?

I think heavyweight torpedoes are MUCH larger than a dipping sonar or a sonobuoy.

All I'm really hearing from this conversation is: it's possible but there hasn't been any serious investment.

I think we all understand what the real life limitations of current UUV's are, but the more pressing conversation is what should we do for gameplay and is what's done for the playtest working the way you want it to.

Well, in fact, the biggest the sonar, the best capabilities in low frequencies
As low frequencies are always (on quiet sub detection only, not always on surface ships) the first to be detected, this suppose the UUV have less capabilities than any "correct" (not 40 years old ...) modern spherical array.
He should detect a quiet sub at much closer range than the spherical, in fact, only when medium frequencies could be heard.
This doesn't work like this in DW unfortunatly ...

If you could avoid the UUV to detect frequency before 200 hz (a complete "out of nowhere" value here, I don't know what is the sound spectrum capabilities of the UUV, but it should be quite limited because of the sensor size), then you will avoid the UUV to catch subs except at very short range, on medium frequencies, but you can use it at much longer distance on noisy surface ships.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

In terms of ASW performance, subs running at "silent speed" are going to be invisible to the UUV. In the test scenario that I am using, my 688i isn't picked up even at 500 yards by the UUV! However, a 688i going 14kts, is picked up by the UUV at about 5.5nm.

Personally, I like the way this works a lot. You can move steathily all you want, but if you want to step on the gas, you better be sure there is no UUV lurking about!

In gameplay terms, what this means is that the UUV is a good tool for ASW *after* the shooting starts, to keep track of an opponent's evasion. So picture this, you and your opponent pick each other up on the TA at about 13nm. You close with your opponent, taking multiple unpredictable legs on a closing course to get within good wire range. On your way in, you fire a UUV deep and try to run it by your opponent, hoping to pick him up. Once the TIW's start coming, your opponent decides to flee and he shows up the UUV, and with a nice triangulation from your TA or sphere, you get a good solution and guide your torpedo on target!

http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/viewtopi...=52499&start=0

[Amizaur]

Originally Posted by OKO

that's right to me
i couldn't see how a so small sonar could have the capabilities of a spherical array.
not really the same size and sophistications.

LW, please take a look to the Playtest thread, I wrote there what I should write here - about UUV sensivity. Just like people here are saying - it's not only the sensivity that has to be changed, it's the working frequency range !! But I believe you know this, as you described UUV as "mobile TB-29"... In fact UUV sensor currently has frequency range identical as a towed array... Or did you only mean it's -3 sensivity when comparing to TB-29 ? In Playtest you did nothing to change it (frequencies), it's still just a mobile TB-29, only much less sensitive...

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

I'm really hesitant to make the base tonal of the UUV something other than 50hz or 60hz. Also, if I make the first tonal 125, the computer is smart enough to see that there is no 50 or 60hz tonal, and will instantly recognize the UUV anyway, so it won't accomplish what I think you are looking to do.

[spaceballs]You know when I’m right I’m right, and me I’m always right.[/spaceballs]

Guess what? I decided to just go and do it. I made a UUV with a signature of 125, 125, 320,1100,0 on a 7 blade prop (7 TPK) and a Passive SL of around 60 and guess what the NB filter on the TB-29 gave 688, 688(i), Traffie, Akulas and UUV as its possible class a very close range.

It might just be sufficient to fool even a experienced player in the heat of battle.

There is a drawback, 50 and 60 hz baseline tonals remove either the US or Ru units depending on what’s selected and 55 hz does give UUV as the only possible solution and a baseline of 0 will display no signature at all. But I still think this could work if people wanted a MOSS instead of a UUV.

[LuftWolf]

Originally Posted by Amizaur

LW, please take a look to the Playtest thread, I wrote there what I should write here - about UUV sensivity. Just like people here are saying - it's not only the sensivity that has to be changed, it's the working frequency range !! But I believe you know this, as you described UUV as "mobile TB-29"... In fact UUV sensor currently has frequency range identical as a towed array... Or did you only mean it's -3 sensivity when comparing to TB-29 ? In Playtest you did nothing to change it (frequencies), it's still just a mobile TB-29, only much less sensitive...

Hey, I do things for reason. I tested the frequencies sensitivities and came up with that they do crap...

[LuftWolf]

Apparently, the UUV sensor just don't work like other sensors.

I tested it as if it were... so I need to go back and try combinations of things as if its some kind of totally unique entity, which it is.

[Molon Labe]

2 of 6 UGSTs I fired in a test circled instead of running out on the assigned snapshot bearing. The other four torps were assigned to contacts.

I had no indication when wires were broken other than that, some time after ordering turns, the torps had not in fact turned. This meant that I did NOT cut the wires to reload the tubes. In one 2-torp salvo, one torpedo made the kill after both wires had been cut. But, since I did not manually close the tube door, I was able to shut down the second torp, and probably would have done so in game without even realizing that the wires had ever been cut.

The second salvo was a total miss. I realized it was a miss and tried to resteer. They didn't react, indicating broken wires. Since they couldn't be resteered on target, there was no reason not to shut them down.

I think the shutdown problem is not something that can be so casually overlooked as previously anticipated.

[Amizaur]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

2 of 6 UGSTs I fired in a test circled instead of running out on the assigned snapshot bearing.

can't believe something like that could have been be missed... have to check playtest one version of torpedo mod, what happens for snapshots.
My test versions of mods always worked perfectly... zero problems.

I had no indication when wires were broken other than that, some time after ordering turns, the torps had not in fact turned.

There will be no other indication... we can't just generate a message for player from docrine... the only way to know that "wire is broken now" is that it doesn't respond to control inputs anymore.

I was able to shut down the second torp, and probably would have done so in game without even realizing that the wires had ever been cut.

I don't think it's possible to avoid this, shutdown is an instantly and irreversibly working command, it shutdowns at once and we can't do anything with that as long as "real" game wire (the one you cut by closing doors) is not cut. Probably there will always be possible to shutdown such torpedo. Sorry... it's only workaround... for real more realistic wire, ask the Sonalysts... this is the best we can do by modding probably - realistic wire with length and limitations, but no "wire broken" message and always possible to shutdown torpedo...

They didn't react, indicating broken wires. Since they couldn't be resteered on target, there was no reason not to shut them down.

Did you preenable them first ? Maybe they lost their target (CM?) and continued ahead, as torpedos in DW sometimes do. If you preenabled them, and they still didn't react, then maybe the limitations on launching platform programmed by Luftwolf were triggered ? A a session with DbgView active to see debugoutput comments from torpedo and wirewatch doctrines would say what is happening.

LW, I wonder that maybe first all should feel familiar with original ATC mod controls and limitations (wire broken only by exceeding wire range), and only then - when all works ok and people know how to use it, then add the more advanced limitations and triggers for ownship maneuvering ?

For now, Molon had non-responding torpedo, and he didn't knew if it's a bug, or wire was broken by his ownship maneuver (with experimental conditionals for "break" detecting).

I think the shutdown problem is not something that can be so casually overlooked as previously anticipated.

Unfortunately, I don't know any way to prevent shutdown possibility. But - what's the problem ?? That a player can shutdown (kill) his own torpedo even though it's supposed to be out of control ? What profits from that ? How could one exploit this ? The only thing that comes to my mind is that he avoids beeing killed by his own torpedo in some hard to imagine situation, and that he can avoid killing a friendly.civilian outside wire range. Maybe assume this is torpedo's internal safe mechanisms that prevents it from killing friendlies ? Or maybe just don't use shutdown button, if torp is non responding (so out of control). When torp is out of wire range, you can't resteer it, enable or preenable (LW fixed this bug), the only thing you can do is shutdown it "illegaly"... is that so bad ?

P.S. Took a 688 and fired few ADCAPs at targets and snapshots. No circling torpedos, all gone for snapshot bearing correctly. But... there seems to be something wrong with playtest one torpedo mods, LW... Two times after passive (one click and I'm sure passive, becasue it didn't pinged at me) enable, torpedos DIDN'T slow down to 40kts !!! Stayed at 55kts in passive mode. Wrong. Have to hunt it down tomorrow with DbgView, maybe there is some syntax error, were they checked with DoctrineChecker ?

P.S.2. I see - after passive enable

Preenablespeed = 40, ok
Setspd Preenablespeed - ok

but only once... :hmm: in fact the setspd command IS given and clearly doesn't work... but this sometimes happens in DW. That's why normally the setspd order is repeated every second. maybe setsped preenablespeed should be repeated every in turn is passive mode, too...? But that's for tomorrow.

and, LW - just after launch, my ADCAP detected his ownship at few yards with visual sensor, as it should.

[1752] NSE: Improved LA SSN detected by Mk 48 ADCAP Torp with Visual at rng 35

OK. But one second later...

[1752] NSE: Kuznetsov CV detected by Mk 48 ADCAP Torp with Visual at rng 117053
[1752] NSE: Kirov CGN detected by Mk 48 ADCAP Torp with Visual at rng 111676
[1752] NSE: Sovremenny DDG detected by Mk 48 ADCAP Torp with Visual at rng 105709



I see this visual sensor has almost unlimited range... Are you sure it is needed ?? When a target is detected, it's stored im memory as long as it's not dropped, even if it's no longer seen by any sensor. This was the case of Maverick missile bug - target was handed to missile at start, and then it homed on it even though it was NEVER detected by ANY missile sensor ! Not seen, but kept in memory and homed on. So it's probably not needed to see the ownship all the time, it should be enaugh that you detect it once and never drop. Try to give this visual sensor a 100yds range, I think it should still work, and don't detect everything on the map every few seconds :-). And WireWatch doctrine could be even shorter (no need for rejecting other targets). And sensor maybe could be rear-facing.

(edit: but if a torped passed withing 50yds from something (CM? sub?) then it would acquire it, even with rear-facing sensor... so maybe rejecting false targets would be still needed, just the sensor would not detect everything on map and slow down the game).

Try to make WireWatch sensor 50-100yds limited and say me how it worked :-)

[Molon Labe]

I haven't been able to repeat the problem with the UGST.

The problem with the second salvo was not that they missed or couldn't be resteered, it was that I was able to shut them down after the wires were broken. Luftwolf claimed earlier that this wouldn't be a problem because the player would reload the tube once the wires were cut, but since we don't get notifed when this happens we're not going to reload right away.

The problem with the shutdown command still being functional is that a player can shut down a torpedo before it hits a neutral or friendy at a time in which that should not be possible. And no, I'm not going to make-believe that it's not a problem by conjuring up some mystery fail-safe program.

[Amizaur]

Isn't a player able to do exactly the same thing, without the mod ? Shutdown it at any distance if torpedo doors not closed ?

Problem is unsolveable probably... so we can use the mod and live with it... or... don't use the mod and still have to live with it - because in stock game it is possible to shut-down such torpedo too ! At any range, as long as torpedo doors open. Isn't it the same ?