Realism- and gameplay-related hardcode fixes for SH3.EXE

[h.sie]

Hitman: Other interesting option would be that the triggered Uboat dissapears f.e. one hour after being spawned (This allows the unit to shoot at the convoy and maybe get sunk by counterfire or survive by dissapearing before escorts get her - simulates well chances of escaping after an attack)

I don't understand your point here. In my opinion it is not that important for the player perspective whether the AI-Subs survive or not. After they have done their job (defecting, sinking escorts, sinking merchants) they may be sunk, since there can be spawned new ones in case a new convoy is sighted.

[Hitman]

I don't understand your point here. In my opinion it is not that important for the player perspective whether the AI-Subs survive or not. After they have done their job (defecting, sinking escorts, sinking merchants) they may be sunk, since there can be spawned new ones in case a new convoy is sighted.

Of course not, but what can be a real inmersion kiler is if the player gets to watch another uboat surfaced, ramming and shooting at close range an escort in a surface battle

What subs basically did surfaced by night was "get in-shoot-get out" so ideally early in the war they would do that and dissapear (Read: submerge or evade) and later on in the war would be detected and intercepted before attacking, probably with escorts catching by surprise and sinking them even when surfaced.

I was just trying to highlight that from my player's point of view, I would rather never see "surface battles" between wolfpacks and escorts; and making the sub dissapear after she had enough time to conduct an attack seems interesting to solve all matters (The destroyer might even stay some time in the last know position circling around).

[urfisch]

i agree to hitman, surface attacks via deckgun or ramming is not the way uboats should engage...

[h.sie]

@Hitman, Urfisch: If I'm informed right, the subs didn't see each other during a convoy battle in 99%. They only saw the RESULTS of what the other subs did (burning ships, deflected escorts). This is what LGN1 and me are focusing on. We also focus on the shadowing and contact-holding after having discovered a convoy and the danger of being detected when sending contact reports every 1-2 hours.

This mod will not be built for people who intend to follow the battle with external cam. They will be dissappointed.

It would be even sufficient to spawn a duck that fires with chocolate tarts at the convoy as long as the player doesn't see it.

But I agree in one point: There is a chance that the player by random sees one of the AI-Subs. This must be avoided, so it's better to have them submerged. It does not matter whether they are on the surface of not. Only important is that they shoot with their virtual torpedoes.

With these dumb AI-Subs, we cannot model a real wolfpack attack in detail, but we try to make an illusion of a wolfpack attack for those who don't use external cam. Real Kaleuns also used their external cam only very rarely.

Only an illusion?? This is disappointing!
Yes! Only an illusion. But Sh3 itself also is only an illusion. Nothing is real.

[Hitman]

But I agree in one point: There is a chance that the player by random sees one of the AI-Subs. This must be avoided, so it's better to have them submerged. It does not matter whether they are on the surface of not. Only important is that they shoot with their virtual torpedoes.

With these dumb AI-Subs, we cannot model a real wolfpack attack in detail, but we try to make an illusion of a wolfpack attack for those who don't use external cam. Real Kaleuns also used their external cam only very rarely.

We are thinking in the same line here, H.Sie, no external cam and my only concern is that the player might randomly stumble upon another uboat which is lurking around the convoy

However I disagree with submerging the uboats; it is more realistic for the player to meet them surfaced at night -and even try to avoid colliding them if necessary- than otherwise. It not just adds atmosphere to the game, but also a difficulty that real Kaleuns had to contend with.

There are at least two instances of uboats colliding with each other on the surface at night close to a convoy, and sightings were by no means rare (See U-521 which almost collided with another while operating on a convoy at night), specially in early war when convoys were smaller and the area around them equally reduced. Also, don't forget that real Kaleuns (And clever escort commanders like Capt. Walker) chose the SAME side of the convoy (Windlee & against the phosphorescent horizon) to attack, thus further reducing the area where uboats operated around a convoy.

In my opinion, surfaced uboats attacking at night and then dissapearing after some time is the most realistic solution for any situation in which the player might find himself in the game

[Fish In The Water]

Originally Posted by h.sie

...I installed SH4+OPMonsoon three times and tried hard to like it, without success. This game totally lacks the depressing Uboat athmosphere SH3 has...

And because of DRM SH5 also is no option. So I'll stick on SH3 and try to add some nice features which I remember from Aces of the Deep.

This is pretty much exactly where I'm at as well...

I'd love to move forward to 'bigger and better' platforms, but great as the graphics may be the gameplay is just too weak. It's kind of like having a sleek looking sports car with a three cylinder engine under the hood. All show and no go.

As for the 500 downloads, I wouldn't fret. The hardcore sim crowd has always been a small group. Better to know you've helped those who truly appreciate the added intricacies and depth. We may be few in number, but you're not alone.

Last but not least, I've found it quite interesting to follow the wolfpack discussion. This strikes me as an important project and I for one am quite pleased that you're investing the time to take it on.

[ETsd4]

Originally Posted by Hitman

In my opinion, surfaced uboats attacking at night and then dissapearing after some time is the most realistic solution for any situation in which the player might find himself in the game

The classic Wolf-pack doctrine was this...
(in pictue course of convoy is 180°T)


Step 1: U-boats heading towards convoy until the first convoy-contact happens.
Step 2: U-boats changing course as same as the convoy-course and sailing in front of the convoy until twilight.
Step 3: At twilight u-boats changing course and approach submerged towards convoy. At night the u-boats are admidst convoy and the attack will start.

At the picture you can see the wolf-pack organizes at max visible range to each other. My guess is: this is because the celestial position FIX with sextant in open waters is in most cases not exact to position in a line-formation with other u-boats. (Edit: Position information via celestial fix have errors upto +-20 sm. It depends of the sea-swell and the visibility/clarity of the horizon)


Visibility under water:
The highest level of visibility ever made under water at sea was ca. 100m. And if i know right there are only a small handful of places worldwide that can offer this visibility.

[h.sie]

@Hitman: At the current state we only have Sergs AI-Subs, which are dumb. They don't search for enemy ships nor do they dive or submerge automatically, whatever is better. They only sit there and shoot at all enemy ships that come in visible range. That's all. I cannot remote-control them. I can only spawn some of them in a waiting position where the convoy is expected, according to the contact reports and course estimations of the player. You see: I cannot fulfil those detailed wishes of yours. AI-Subs lurking through a convoy are not possible at the moment. Instead, they will shoot virtual torpedoes from a distant position.

Also, I will model Hunter-Killer-Groups in 1943+, but you won't see battles between them and the Uboats. The AI-Subs simply won't get spawned and the player receives a BDU message "U-456 sunk. Attack alone" or similar.

This is a compromise!

Those who are unsatisfied with that compromise, are invited to enhance the AI of the Subs. I would be thankful to have better ones. I must admit: I am not able to change their AI at the moment. Thus, detailed wolfpack tactics won't help in this point, because I cannot realise them. Thanks anyway, Et4ds

[Hitman]

Ah I see, so the AI Uboats are not like the german AI destroyers, and will not move around and close in to shoot, but instead will remain sitting in a position from which they will shoot at the enemy

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I had though the AI uboats would act as german destroyers, now it's all clear

[h.sie]

@Hitman: Glad the misunderstanding is cleared now.

LGN1 and me tried different approaches, but none was satisfying. We also tried to "beam" an airbase which itself spawns AI-Subs (with aircraft AI). That works in principle, the AI-Subs searched the convoy, but then the AI-Subs were treated as aircraft by the escorts, not as submarine.

So we decided to use the current solution. Some AI-Subs waiting for the convoy on interception position.

Better than nothing.

[Hitman]

Yup, some quick tests run by me reveal that:

1) German DDs attached to the convoy asume its waypoints and speed. They attack if close enough, and simply steer same course and speed if distant enough to exclude mutual detection with convoy (Not a bad principle for a shadowing uboat, though)

2) German DDs forming an own task force but with no waypoints sit like ducks and shoot at the convoy

3) German DDs forming an own task force and with waypoints follow the scripted path and shoot at the convoy

There is hence no dynamic action of the AI when finding a convoy, (Unlike when finding a sub, where they actively prosecute her) and that is more than likely the reason why your AI Uboats sit there like ducks.

Interestingly, I tried sergbutos wolfpack mod and the escorts dropped depth charges at the AI Uboats, which amazed me since they should theoretically consider them surface units

Now the question is wether you can manage to make the AI uboat appear as unit attached to the convoy (so it has waypoints) AND in a random position close to it, so it can at least move and shoot at it and attract the escorts. That would enhance consideraly the behaviour of the AI Uboats

[Myxale]

Just a quick question:

Is it possible to add more Ranks (to expand on them) to the game?

?

[LGN1]

Hi,

as h.sie has written, we tried hard to get a better/more active AI, but did not succeed. Therefore, the AI-subs at the moment are far from perfect. However, they do their job well enough I would say.

The present work is more about simulating the wolfpack action before the attack, i.e., simulating the shadowing, the BDU orders, the probability to have wolfpacks at different times and in different areas,... this aspect in itself is a huge task and h.sie is doing a fantastic job. I dare to promiss that if all problems can be solved this mod will have a huge impact on game-play and immersion in SH3.

Cheers, LGN1

PS: If at some later time a better AI for the subs can be created, it's not a problem to add it to h.sie's current work.

[LGN1]

@Hitman: The AI 'sees' the AI-subs as surface units, but their type is 'submarine'. Therefore they are attacked with depth-charges.

Only 'plane' types actively search targets and attack. However, the atttacked ships then respond as if they are attacked by planes, i.e., no depth-charges, but anti-aircraft fire,...

What I would really like to understand better is the influence of the type setting of a unit. It seems that it determines a lot of things, e.g., how a unit responds to a certain other unit, how it attacks (depending on its own type and the target type), and whether it can spawn aircrafts,...

If I'm not wrong some mods add new types and I wonder what AI these types get attached

Cheers, LGN1

[Hitman]

What about using airplane AI but setting the unit as submarine?

The idea is that the AI is of an airplane, but for the enemy it is a submarine. If right now we have destroyer AI combined with submarine type for the unit, I don't see why we can't set the Ai of the airplane combined with the latter. YOu probably have already tried it, so I guess there must be some problem here or there