Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I think the issue we are seeing in the West is not so much war fatigue, but increasing distrust of how it is being run.

A lot of focus is on the fact that Republicans are not approving the $60 billion of additional aid, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. The WH is not saying this extra $60B will win the war, just that it will prevent Ukrainian collapse for another 3-6 months. No one expects the stalemate to break anytime soon. So what happens in another 3-6 months? We have to pony up another $60 Billion? How many years will we have to keep pouring money into this? 1 year? 2 years ? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

No one seems to have any idea what the endgame is, just a fuzzy notion that Ukraine has to be "liberated" from the Russians without a clear strategy of how to do it WITHOUT winding up in WW3/Nuclear Holocaust.

This war is starting to look more and more like the Afghanistan War. Everyone said we had to keep the Taliban out or it would be the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it. The War lasted 20 years, cost trillions of dollars and the Taliban have been back in power for over 2 years. Notice how despite all the previous handwringing, no one cares about Afghanistan anymore?

You can not compare Afghanistan with Ukraine. Ukraine is a democratic state Afghanistan is not a state it was and is ruled by warlords even the US could not get rid of them these warlords are running it for centuries. If the West does not help now, they gone pay for it in the future not in the already given support but much more also in western blood.

[August]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I think the issue we are seeing in the West is not so much war fatigue, but increasing distrust of how it is being run.

A lot of focus is on the fact that Republicans are not approving the $60 billion of additional aid, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. The WH is not saying this extra $60B will win the war, just that it will prevent Ukrainian collapse for another 3-6 months. No one expects the stalemate to break anytime soon. So what happens in another 3-6 months? We have to pony up another $60 Billion? How many years will we have to keep pouring money into this? 1 year? 2 years ? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

No one seems to have any idea what the endgame is, just a fuzzy notion that Ukraine has to be "liberated" from the Russians without a clear strategy of how to do it WITHOUT winding up in WW3/Nuclear Holocaust.

This war is starting to look more and more like the Afghanistan War. Everyone said we had to keep the Taliban out or it would be the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it. The War lasted 20 years, cost trillions of dollars and the Taliban have been back in power for over 2 years. Notice how despite all the previous handwringing, no one cares about Afghanistan anymore?

We are not fighting this war, the Ukrainians are. Don't you understand the difference? We are merely helping them with the means to fight for their survival.

Russia could be beaten like a red headed step child back to pre-2014 borders and it won't start WW3. It just might start if he is victorious in Ukraine and moves on to attack the Baltic states or Poland.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by August

We are not fighting this war, the Ukrainians are. Don't you understand the difference? We are merely helping them with the means to fight for their survival.

Russia could be beaten like a red headed step child back to pre-2014 borders and it won't start WW3. It just might start if he is victorious in Ukraine and moves on to attack the Baltic states or Poland.

Agree if Putin wins in Ukraine it is not only Ukraine that lost Putin will sell it as he defeated the West so that his allies in the anti-West block can do the same and Russia will start a war in the Baltics when he wins in Ukraine be sure of that after that he will annex the whole former USSR satellites countries because he thinks they are Russia.

[Otto Harkaman]

Its over, get ready for the fall out

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Otto Harkaman

Its over, get ready for the fall out

What is over?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

I think the issue we are seeing in the West is not so much war fatigue, but increasing distrust of how it is being run.

Not "either this or that", but both is true.

A lot of focus is on the fact that Republicans are not approving the $60 billion of additional aid, but that is just the tip of the iceberg. The WH is not saying this extra $60B will win the war, just that it will prevent Ukrainian collapse for another 3-6 months. No one expects the stalemate to break anytime soon. So what happens in another 3-6 months? We have to pony up another $60 Billion? How many years will we have to keep pouring money into this? 1 year? 2 years ? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

Valid questions. However, truth also is that the Republicans use this to blackmail the WH on tougher immigrations policies in the US.

No one seems to have any idea what the endgame is, just a fuzzy notion that Ukraine has to be "liberated" from the Russians without a clear strategy of how to do it WITHOUT winding up in WW3/Nuclear Holocaust.

I thi k in the QWest they start to realise two things: first, they way they hoped would be sufficnet to suppoort Ukroane towars a victory was misled and self-deceptiove, and seocnd, it dawns on peopel what it woudl really would take to make sure Ukraine wins. And many concluded in the backyear dof their minds that they might not be willign to pay the price, though it still takes them time to admit this tought. However, we the West pay only a pric ein goods and money. The Ukrainians must pay in blood.

This war is starting to look more and more like the Afghanistan War. Everyone said we had to keep the Taliban out or it would be the beginning of the end of civilization as we know it. The War lasted 20 years, cost trillions of dollars and the Taliban have been back in power for over 2 years. Notice how despite all the previous handwringing, no one cares about Afghanistan anymore?

Afghanistan was bringing out seeds on an unfertile soil, metaphorically. Ukraine is a fertile ground, both metaphorically and literally,
although there are still weeds everywhere that need to be weeded, but at least they are trying.


Besides, it's right on our (Europe's) doorstep and not half a globe away. Uncomfortably close, that means. Putin, or his Simulacrum, just days ago threatened Latvia.

[Otto Harkaman]

This war, no way this thing is going to last to next December

The Europeans better get their butts in gear

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Otto Harkaman

Its over, get ready for the fall out

Not over yet, but already decided if we do not dramatically boost opur support. We need trains of supplies going to Ukraine - every week. Two or three trains per day. Ammo, drones, missiles, vehicles, tanks, APCs - everything

However - where should they come from, their load I mean?


And where should the manpower of the Ukrainian combat forces come from?

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Otto Harkaman

This war, no way this thing is going to last to next December

The Europeans better get their butts in gear

Nah this war will last year's Ukraine will not surrender, both sides are going to active defence for this winter to build up for spring/summer this is not over.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Otto Harkaman

The Europeans better get their butts in gear

There are more important things on his mind.

[August]

Originally Posted by Dargo

Agree if Putin wins in Ukraine it is not only Ukraine that lost Putin will sell it as he defeated the West so that his allies in the anti-West block can do the same and Russia will start a war in the Baltics when he wins in Ukraine be sure of that after that he will annex the whole former USSR satellites countries because he thinks they are Russia.

He's stated more than once that he considers the historical limits of the Czarist and Soviet empires as russian territory. AS long as he is in power he will not stop trying to achieve it.

[Otto Harkaman]

Its not going to happen, you had your push this summer. I said repeatedly they should stay on the defense. They've wasted all their reserves, where are the men going to come from?

This is attrition warfare there are no brilliant maneuvers, its easy to count one stack against the other and one stack is measurable smaller than the other.

[Dargo]

Originally Posted by Otto Harkaman

Its not going to happen, you had your push this summer. I said repeatedly they should stay on the defense. They've wasted all their reserves, where are the men going to come from?

This is attrition warfare there are no brilliant maneuvers, its easy to count one stack against the other and one stack is measurable smaller than the other.

Ukraine fighting an average 41 the younger generation has not been mobilized from the amour delivered this year only about 5% is lost or damaged so do not know were you got they waisted their reserves after a couple of weeks of the offensive Ukraine change its tactic to save men and material. Nobody in the west knows what Ukraine has or have left, Ukraine opsec is very good so we do not know anything. Easy to say, "you had your push this summer" if you do not get the tools needed to do the job.

[Otto Harkaman]

I don't wish the Ukrainians bad things, I am just being realistic (in my opinion).

[Skybird]

Colonel Reisner, yesterday:


https://www-n--tv-de.translate.goog/..._x_tr_pto=wapp