WHY God - is there no decent Sailing Ship war game?!?!

[bix]

NEW RELEASE - SINKING SHIPS!! RESCUE OPS!!

all,

this about has it now, in terms of a playable scenario that "completes."

http://www.cityarts.com/signal/signal.zip

yes, it even has rescue operations! they occur automatically if your ship is within a certain distance of an ally ship "on fire." see the signal flags. note: sometimes the flags get overridden by a child state (i'll fix it eventually), so if you see a ship with no G/N numbers, it is basically on fire and will sink within 30 seconds. the rescue ship(s) within proximity will scoop up survivors and buff their G/N numbers. when in rescue it can not fire guns. it can still navigate, but i think i'll constrict that, so she really is a sitting duck.

your currently selected ship (mouse down and hold) will show it's G/N numbers in yellow. you can now direct the ship to a point. it may take time for the ship to sort out its sails and get going in the right direction.

once near the point, it will take station. it will fire at enemies but it will not chase them.

i've watched the scenario play out with wind steady from both east and west, theoretically giving no side an advantage. if i don't touch anything, just let it play, it "ends" about even, there are a few ships scattered about with no navigation or no gunnery.

so, my captains, can you "beat" the scenario!!!

i would say a "decisive" victory would be having 8 ships remaining with N/G both > 0, and the opponent being all burnt/sunk or all remaining without N/G

you prolly can achieve this, i have not yet rolled out half the AI tricks i have in store.

this will be the last release for a bit. i need to 1/2 time on this and another project, i'll still likely release once a weekish, on fridays, with whatever is new.

looking very much forward to hearing your thoughts

best,
bix

http://www.cityarts.com/signal/signal.zip

[raymond6751]

but not easy. I got to sink a ship!!

What I / we need is a line of ships. Working each individually is hard. There could be leader ships that others follow, until you get more sophisticated routines.

Well done. I did notice some didn't respond to my orders, perhaps due to being engaged. Also, once on station, most would move off again soon.

A vast amount of work, my friend. Congratulations.

[bix]

yup. the interface needs to be transparent, the game needs to be difficult. not quite there yet.

re ship nav points - when near the commanded point, the ship "takes up station" meaning they beat back and forth, generally around that point, they don't anchor (yet).

re working ships - yes, and we are now in the realm of a "meta" command system. i am writing just such a system for the "real" tactical AI. at this point, i just completed basic navigation and gunnery, a content pipeline, and a release mechanism - these being the biggest hurdles.

the tactical AI will have sequences of maneuvers like "AnchorAt( formLine(point) )" in the case of let's say, a port defense. All the maneuvers and combinations of maneuvers available to the AI will be available to the player. the question is, how to make them available.

so, if you please, which to give me a small list of "line commands," to be executed upon a group of selected ships, that you would find most useful.

now we are getting into the meat of the matter.

best,
bix

btw i posted the first "help" file here, distilled from my release posts

http://www.cityarts.com/signal/

[bix]

this is what i'll do as an initial simple implementation -

the 16 ships are grouped in 4 squads, each squad has a pennant, each ship flies it. 4 ships per squad, assigned right to left in the initial line (we can get into squad assignment later).

player selects a ship, this selects the whole squad. player selects the same ship again, this selects just this ship. command commences.

there is a second compass rose used to set the formation of the squad, when the squad is selected. 8 points just like the wind, this sets the squad alignment when they reach the destination point. they will maintain it as best they can based on current navigation rules and island obstacles. they will engage enemies along the way, but they will not chase them.

i will then also create the first gunnery command based on the squad. something flips the player to gunnery, hmm cannon icon prolly, the player selects a point in the play area, and the squad will acquire targets within a region centered on that point. basically anything from the ship to that point, parallel to the line formation.

sounds about right?
bix

[raymond6751]

Sounds like a plan.

When I get a chance today I will scan through the full text of the Fighting Instructions actually used to see ideas for orders. More to follow.

Great stuff, my friend.

[frigokar]

you can try age of pirates:city of abandoned ships

there is also a guy modding the game to make it more historicaly accurate with periods from early 1550-1600, the middle 1650-1700 (which he will release very soon ) and late 1750-1800

you can check his work here

http://www.piratesahoy.net/threads/n...d.19695/page-6

this is his youtube channel

http://www.youtube.com/user/modernknightone

[raymond6751]

I've gone through the Fighting Instructions document without any luck in finding specifics. There were long-winded details of what the fleet should do in certain circumstances - but signals were given in the form of colored flags flown from certain locations on the commander's ship. Ships were in divisions and the divisions had numbers. Here is a little of what I found with an example of the "text"

Form Line Ahead
Form Line Abreast
Attack in succession
General Chase
General Engage
Reform Line on Me
Attack from windward
Attack from leeward
Starboard tack from the van
Starboard tack from the rear
Port tack from the van
Port tack from the rear

As the intention of a line of bearing is to keep the fleet ready to
form suddenly a line of battle, the position of the division or
squadron flags, shown with the signals for such a line, will refer to
the forming the line of battle; that division or squadron whose flag
is _uppermost_ (without considering whether it do or do not form
the van of the line of bearing) is to place itself in that station
which would become the van if the fleet should haul to the wind, and
form the line of battle; and the division whose flag is
_undermost_ is to place itself in that station in which it would
become the rear if by hauling to the wind the line of battle should be
formed.

Will keep looking for specifics.

Mike

[bix]

@frigokar really nice ships! i hope someday to have that level of detail.

i've been scouring the FI too. i came across it a while back but lost the link. thanks man! interesting to note that rudyard kippling was a consultant.

much contained therein from my read is assuming ships of different capabilities, and how to comport them - a good assumption, and indeed i want ships of all classes.

but assuming for now that all ships are created equal, if we can distill a small set of "opening moves" we make a huge jump towards accuracy.

the usual applies, protect your flank, so maybe two squads of two ships weather and lee of the line, more agile because they are just two ships. then perhaps 2 squads of 6 each central. two large squads, two small squads.

the van and rear situation has always interested me in re naval, in that the tack swaps van and rear. this i do not think ever obtains in a land battle.

b

[raymond6751]

I know you want reality as in which flags are used. For the commands,
as a minimum I'd say:
Form line ahead
Turn P/S in succession or individual
Engage
General chase
Attack from windward
Attack from leeward
Double the line (surround enemy)
Anchor

Any ships not in formation would be the frigates and sloops used to scout and deliver messages. They are faster than ships of the line.

I have several WWI games that use formations and maybe flags, I'll look them over for hints.

[raymond6751]

No help from my naval games but...

Research on web found these pieces:

flag signals or links to info:

http://www.gramotey.com/?page=17&ope...=1195197238.15

...

published by the Navy Records Society, Fighting Instructions, 1530–1816 (1905) and Signals and Instructions, 1776–1794 (1908).

These were the only signals that were allowed, but they were not limited to five or eight words. Up to two such signals could be

sent per game-turn, and some could also have a number attached. Some examples:
100 Entire fleet to form line ahead
101 Center or 1st squadron or division to form line ahead
102 Van or 2nd squadron or division to form line ahead
103 Rear or 3rd squadron or division to form line ahead
104 Observation or 4th squadron or division to form line ahead
301 Tack in succession from the head of the line
302 Turn in succession to starboard (right) by number specified × 30° [with number]
303 Turn in succession to port (left) by number specified × 30° [with number]
304 Tack in succession from the rear of the line: Last ship tacks, then the second from the last, etc.
480 Leading ship to steer the same course as the enemy and engage the enemy rear from windward (upwind); the rest of the fleet

to do the same as they come up
481 Leading ship to steer the same course as the enemy and engage the enemy rear from leeward (downwind); the rest of the fleet

to do the same as they come up
482 Pursue and attack a disabled enemy ship
483 Every ship to pursue the enemy and engage as closely as possible (“general chase”)
484 Van or 2nd squadron or division to pursue the enemy
485 Rear or 3rd squadron or division to pursue the enemy
486 Observation or 4th squadron or division to pursue the enemy
The following were for use in an operational-level game in which the fleets were maneuvering at a distance, with a scale of 1 or 2

divisions of 2-3 ships each per hex of 500 or 1000 yards. This was used to generate the opening positions of a CA scenario.
......................................... Strange sail....Suspected enemy
Sighted in northeast quadrant....621......................631
Sighted in northwest quadrant....622.....................632
Sighted in southeast quadrant...623......................633
Sighted in southwest quadrant...624.....................634
640 Number of ships sighted is [must be second signal, sent in same game-turn as signal 621–634, and include number]

...

Some examples of signals that could be sent with this system (address followed by list elements separated by |) are:
Fleet: Get to | windwad of | enemy line.
Van Squadron: Tack | together | with last available MP.
Red Squadron: Attack | enemy van | from leeward.
Observation Squadron: Turn in succession | 180 degrees | from the rear ship.
3rd Division: Turn to port | 60 degrees | immediately.
Fleet: Pass through the enemy line | in order of battle | ahead of the flagship.

...

Possible addresses included divisions and squadrons designated by number (1st through 4th), color (red, white, blue, white & blue

[used historically by the French through 1792]; light, observation), function (light, obsservation), or position (van, center, rear, and

lee and weather). These could be used only to the extent that they were shown in the scenario ship data table as actual divisions of

a fleet or squadron.

...

http://www.flaginstitute.org/pdfs/Barrie%20Kent.pdf flags and diagrams (1940)

...

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/xf~1799.html 1799 British with illustrations of flags.

...

misc:
Compass Signals.
When accompanying other signals, they point out the course to be steered, the bearing of land, or any other direction necessary to be signified at the same time.
North. Dutch pendant over red/white horizontal.
N. by E. Blue pendant over red/white horizontal.
N.N.E. White pendant over red/white horizontal.
N.E. by N. Red pendant over red/white horizontal.
N.E. Red/white horizontal
N.E. by E. Red pendant under red/white horizontal.
E.N.E. White pendant under red/white horizontal.
E. by N. Blue pendant under red/white horizontal.

Similar arrangement for the other quarters,
South-East being blue/yellow horizontal,
South-West being yellow/blue horizontal,
North-West being white/red horizontal.

Signals to be made by Ships of the Convoy as well as the Ships of War.

Yellow/red/yellow horizontal.
Foretopmast head.
To signify that an enemy is in sight. Merchant ships not having this flag are to signify the same by hoisting an English ensign at the maintopmast head with the Union downwards.

Red Ensign.
Foretopmast head. Land discovered.

Foretopmast shrouds. To signify being overpressed with sail, and being unable to keep company on that account.

Maintopmast shrouds. Needing the assitance of boats to tow.

Mizzentopmast head or Gaff end. Being in distress but not wanting immediate assistance.

Red Ensign with Union downwards.
Foretopmast head. Being in distress and wanting immediate assistance.

Foretopmast shrouds. Being in distress and obliged to part company on that account, when the state of the waether will not admit of acquainting the Commander of the convoy of the occasion thereof.

Mizzentopmast head or Gaff end. Being in danger, or/of (?) sticking on a shoal. Fire guns until relieved.

Hope some of that helps.

Mike

[bix]

@r/mike - wow! gimme a few days (a few lifetimes) to sort through it all.

my read has also focused on doubling, some admirals endorsed, some condemned. i wish we had some diagrams, you know, how this all sorted out once the cannon got hot.

i have implemented some basic squad commands. the ships don't quite form lines, they sort of "group" but generally on the same tack. not our optimal situation, but as soon as the cannon start singing, navigation in re squadron formation vs. navigation in re bringing the guns to bare becomes an orthogonal concern.

in other words, to keep line and at the same time to helm about for a broadside are independent concerns. indeed they are orthogonal concerns in that the "angle" between the two desires is not helpful for either. but this is why this particular problem is so interesting...

rather than make a "release" i'd like to post an interim "squad sim" so you can see how different the whole sim obtains when the ships organize by groups.

i'll pass the url shortly - it will be some branch on the usual .../signal.blah. it might be a day or two before it rolls out.

bix

[raymond6751]

It seems to me the answer is waypoints and course changes. When line ahead is ordered a waypoint for the group is made at the location of the leader. His current course will become their course as each reaches the waypoint.

Each change of course then by the leader becomes a new waypoint.

second thought: Each ship has another as its follow target, and a number in the group. 2 follows 1 while three follows two through waypoints.

If two is out of action, three follows one.

Kind of like deleted records in a database. Part of each record is its own rec number and the number of the next record. Or rather, each knows the number of the next and previous.

[bix]

the usual - http://www.cityarts/signal/signal.zip

what you describe is known as a "linked list" and yeah what you describe is about how i handled it.

where formation breaks down is when an individual has a situation they need to resolve, for example, running aground or running afoul with another ship.

then there are the needs of combat, bringing your broadsides to bare, which can be exclusive of maintaining a line of battle.

here is the first crack at it. i think the ships are beginning to comport themselves in a reasonably seamanlike fashion. in general, they want to take station downwind from the leader, this determining the angle of their "line."

prior to trying to play it, just watch it once, paying attention to accidental (or purposeful) changes in wind.

then if yer brave, you can direct the squads. members of a squad share a pennant. if the leader falls, the next member becomes the leader (hmm might be a bit buggy still)

to select the squad, touch a member, and the leader (not this ship) is thus selected. i need much better selection feedback. if you continue to touch a member, she is released from the squad and becomes an independent. like i said, the haptic sense needs improvement.

so now you can now set a spot for the squad to go.


couple things i could do in re selection mechanics -
1. ships never remove from the squad.
2. selecting a ship makes that ship the leader.


lemme know if you think this a better approach.


btw. the signal flag key is no longer fully correct, i'm miss-using some signals for debug purposes.

i also reduced the size of the ships a fair bit, gives them more room to move, and dropped and zoomed the initial camera point.

and what do you know, it's the friday release.

bix

[raymond6751]

[QUOTE=bix;2061871]the usual - http://www.cityarts/signal/signal.zip

where formation breaks down is when an individual has a situation they need to resolve, for example, running aground or running afoul with another ship.{Quote}

Right. Can you work with priorities? 1=follow current order 2=deal with own sailing/repairs situation 3. deal with enemy

[Quote]
then there are the needs of combat, bringing your broadsides to bare, which can be exclusive of maintaining a line of battle.
[quote]

True but when in formation you fire on nearest opposite as she bears, keeping in formation. Once released from formation, then you maneuvre to best firing position on best target.
[Quote]

[Quote]
if you continue to touch a member, she is released from the squad and becomes an independent. [Quote]

At times you will want to release a ship.

[Quote]
couple things i could do in re selection mechanics -
1. ships never remove from the squad. NO NO
2. selecting a ship makes that ship the leader. NO NO

[Quote]

Number two only if leader is sunk or disabled.

Two types of release needed; being release a division from whole, and release a ship from formation.

Ships should auto release from formation when unable to maintain position due to damage, grounding, grappling, and so on.

You could also allow player to indicate a "Rally" point and/or an exit direction. Ships that are too damaged to fight or maintain formation could be auto directed to these points - with messages. The exit idea saves losing ships. The rally point gathers them and allows repair and continued fighting, reformation.

Note: I realize you are getting an avalanche of ideas and suggestions, not all possible to implement. However, ideas might gel for later inclusion or solve a problem for you. I know you can't make it all at once.

Will enjoy "playing" your game this weekend.

Mike Raymond

[bix]

priorities - yes, though i'm trying to handle them through a fuzzy logic weighting scheme, rather than hard breakpoints.

broadsides - that sounds like a perfectly good plan, will implement it such.

leaders - okay, i'll keep it as is, just need to make sure the player knows what they are doing. as it stands, one can indeed release a ship from squad. in fact it is bit too easy such that it can be accidental.

auto squad release - interesting idea, but the cases you mention are states that are constantly happening, which inevitably dissolves the squadron cohesion. mmm, and then how to get them back on-squad? lemme think about that - perhaps a temporary override, which is pretty much what is happening now, i dump a bunch of "weight" into the "avoid danger" behavior. perhaps i should dump a bit more.

then there is this thing about time. to actually see a result and understand it, the result needs to have time to manifest. sometimes you will see a ship in what i call "sit and spin." this is when it is trying to figure out what to do next, but is shall we say, conflicted.

as always, your feedback is spot-on and very welcome.

bix