Do we really want to ruin this forum with constant DRM and SH5 trashing?

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

Great Master? Hmmm, I like that! Thank you!! ...And henceforth, you may be my affectionate Little Grasshopper!



As for the independent Sub-sim producers...we do not need any right now. We really don't. There is no current shortage of submarine simulations, as is evidenced by the still highly popular SH3 and SH4. How many submarine simulations do you need anyway?

Speak for yourself, mate. That's your opinion, I would be quite happy with a new subsim every year.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

No, you have to own the game, in order to express your displeasure/frustration with the course Ubisoft took with SH5, but the displeasure has been exoressed and voiced, way past the point of being productive, don't you think?

Meh, human nature. It can be a bummer sometimes I agree.

If we were at a party and there were a few guys always shouting and yelling about how much they hate the music, christ, kick them into the pool.

Hmm... is it a few guys only?

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by Webster

the same logic applies to dating,

why buy dinner and drinks and get all dressed up unless you get a commitment in advance that you will get great sex?

you mod the game in the "hope" that you can make it much better then it is on its own.

well sometimes the game becomes great if modded enough and thats why we keep modding games that to be honest are stinkers as released but they are still all we have so its this or nothing.

EEK! "Why buy dinner and drinks...hope you will get great sex?"
WOW - there's a sexist comment and one typically heard out of pubescent males who tend to spend a LOT of time alone...in mom and dad's basement...playing WoW and/or Dante's Inferno, and did I mention, "ALONE?"

"...you mod the game in the "hope" that you can make it much better then it is on its own."
Couldn't agree more, but, as mentioned in my post you referred to, the question is when does modding become a way for the manufacturer/developer to shirk its primary duty to us, the paying public, by making US pay for the BETA VERSION and expecting UNPAID MODDERS to, again, "DO THE GRUNT WORK (a.k.a, "primary software development/debugging")?" Both SH3 and SH4 had significant problems as well, but at least the basic functionality was intact. In SH5, we have blind destroyers, aircraft that won't attack, ships running headlong into seawalls and/or attempting to cruise on land, merchants that are FAR more dangerous than anti-sub military units, ad infinitum! THIS PRODUCT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PUT ON THE MARKET WITH THESE SHORTCOMINGS! I can only conclude Ubi's developed a VERY cavalier attitude towards those of us who've supported their sub sims through their various iterations.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus

EEK! "Why buy dinner and drinks...hope you will get great sex?"
WOW - there's a sexist comment and one typically heard out of pubescent males who tend to spend a LOT of time alone...in mom and dad's basement...playing WoW and/or Dante's Inferno, and did I mention, "ALONE?"

MEH...

Anyway, the patch 1.2 patch is just around the corner. The "bugs" section should thin out, hopefully.

[kylania]

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus

THIS PRODUCT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PUT ON THE MARKET WITH THESE SHORTCOMINGS!

Yet it was, get over it all ready.

The main functions will be fixed next week, hopefully every post from you won't be some crazy modders oppression rant after that, but I doubt it.

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Because some people have fun with the game and want to mod out of a sense of wanting to have even more fun with it, rather than some sense of duty.

I agree with Heretic. Some people need to get over themselves. It's a goddam computer game, not some moralistic last stand of consumer freedom.

Mookie, you and I have been down this road together in the past. ONE MORE TIME: there is NOTHING inherently wrong with modding as a way to enhance the game! MY objection is that judging from the dismal state of this release, it appears Ubi is EXPECTING modders - who, I remind you, are UNPAID, VOLUNTEER labor - to make it playable! There IS a difference between modding for enhancement and what I'm calling, "grunt work!" Building in BASIC FUNCTIONALITY - NOT enhancing the gaming experience - is, "GRUNT WORK!" "Grunt Work" should be performed BEFORE the product goes to market!

Yet another metaphor: let's say you buy Microsoft Excel - the brand-spanking-new-just-put-on-the-market 2011 Edition. After installing it, you find it's incapable of even doing multiplication. You call Microsoft and ask, "How can you call this a spreadsheet program if it can't even do simple math?" Microsoft responds, "Oh, we're aware it can't multiply anything, but you'll figure it out...And, by the way, thank you for your money!"

[Reece]

Quoted in another thread:
Neal Stevens said:
We already have many threads to express disatisfaction over the copy protection.

That statement is in error, most of us are not against copy protection but against being online for a single player game! (OSP/DRM) there are many ways to copy protect but this method is not for copy protection, more to stop reselling the games and power control!

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

MEH...

Anyway, the patch 1.2 patch is just around the corner. The "bugs" section should thin out, hopefully.

My friend, we all lived through four patches with SH4 - five, if one counts the, "optional at extra cost" U-Boat add-on - and for many people, SH4 remained unreliable, sluggish, and prone to, "blue screen of death" problems until the end...

Patches help, but, as evidenced above...(I rest this particular case!)

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by Reece

That statement is in error, most of us are not against copy protection but against being online for a single player game! (OSP/DRM) there are many ways to copy protect but this method is not for copy protection, more to stop reselling the games and power control!

And, furthermore, and while I'm on my soapbox, this, "always online" raises privacy concerns for me! Is Ubi also gathering information by forcing me to be online with them everytime I use their product? Will I soon be barraged by targeted ads hitting my email In-Box?

Will Webster get a date who'll put out without his having to incur the expense of dinner and a movie and, if so...

[mcarlsonus]

Originally Posted by kylania

Yet it was, get over it all ready.

The main functions will be fixed next week, hopefully every post from you won't be some crazy modders oppression rant after that, but I doubt it.

First, see previous post re: previous experience with Ubi's patches. I suspect from your comment you've never owned a Ubi package prior to SH5.

"...crazy modders oppression rant...?" I suggest you carefully read and attempt to COMPREHEND my posts prior to commenting on stuff I've posted! I've never said ANYTHING regarding, "oppressing" modders! I appreciate them greatly and without them, I wouldn't have experienced so many enjoyable hours with SH3 and (to a lesser extent) SH4.

What I AM against is a company who expects unpaid labor to pick up the slack while they collect your money for unfinished products. I SUPPORT Subsim modders and don't want to see them get, "used and abused" by some entity willing to take advantage of their good nature, proven competence, and selfless attitude - UNLESS, of course, that company's willing to compensate them for doing development/debugging work, referred to previously as, "grunt work!"

"Modder oppression" indeed...

[Adriatico]

It is pathetic game from the day one:

Simulation community should swallow arcade RPG, DRM, 40% finished product, boring campaign, support the brand with they money...etc.

...and Ubi ?

What steps UBi displayed so far or announced as next ?

For mutual "love and support" - it takes two sides...

Ubi made a commercial product for mass-gaming instead of simulation... OK. Fair enaugh - so enjoy your sales results...

***
You don't have to serve sim community... but please show some respect to people who kept SH brand for ten years.

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Speak for yourself, mate. That's your opinion, I would be quite happy with a new subsim every year.

My opinions are always only my own, Neal. My wife reminds me of that constantly...

And I, too, would be quite happy with a new subsim every year (as I would a new Ferarri, a new airplane, or a new house up in the Rockies), but I am also realistic enough to know that it probably won't happen...and so I am happy with what I do have now in SH3 and SH4. SH5 is gorgeous and fresh and inviting...but, much like dating a beautiful and sexy young woman with cronic flatulence, I am drawn to her but just cannot bear to spend much time alone with her.

Thankfully, that too is just my own opinion...

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Sev, you make very good points. It's pretty sad when people who declare they have zero interest in a game take trolling to a whole new level. I'll never understand why some people will lurk in a forum for a game they do not have and wait for opportunities to make a post that essentially negative. Over and over.

I have gotten a lot of PMs and email from people who feel the same as you. People who are getting some enjoyment out of a flawed game are getting sick of trolls and griefers.


However, what can we do about it? It's pretty hard to weed out people who post simply to add more grief to an already miserable situation. You can place them on your ignore list. You can report them if they are topic spamming--this is a forum for SH5, not DRM philosphies or game flaming-- and a moderator can roll their post into an existing grief thread. If they get enough complaints against them, we can deny their access to this forum. Any other ideas are welcome.


Oh, I know, someone is going to hate on me over this, but before you do, think about what we are trying to do here: run a nice, relaxed place for reasonable people to talk about submarine games. People who do not like SH5 should frequent the SH3 or Sh4 forums, whatever game is interesting to you. I say this, not out of any malice, not at all. Just think about what you are doing to this forum.

Come on, man.

Excellent post Neal - well written, sums up exactly the way I feel about the whole situation at the moment.

Then I read on and saw that it had done nothing, the trolling continued.....

*sigh*

[Immacolata]

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus

Mookie, you and I have been down this road together in the past. ONE MORE TIME: there is NOTHING inherently wrong with modding as a way to enhance the game! MY objection is that judging from the dismal state of this release, it appears Ubi is EXPECTING modders - who, I remind you, are UNPAID, VOLUNTEER labor - to make it playable! There IS a difference between modding for enhancement and what I'm calling, "grunt work!" Building in BASIC FUNCTIONALITY - NOT enhancing the gaming experience - is, "GRUNT WORK!" "Grunt Work" should be performed BEFORE the product goes to market!

Take a look at GSC who makes the STALKER games. Their iterations are improving. Shadow of Chernobyl was abysmal. Clear Skies were not unflawed but better working from the start.
Call of Pripyat is pretty much spot on from release. Both CS and SoC saw extensive modding, ie "fixing" alongside "flavouring".

I expect CoP will see "flavouring" only.
GSC develops the same way as UBI romania probably. Iterating over a base (SH3 in UBis case, SoC in GSC's case). But their ambitions differ enormously, because where GSC seems to get their act together and improve measurably, Ubi seems to add new problems with new ideas constantly. Or they just not very skilled at critical bits in the Ubi camp, that being project management, financial, making realistic planning, having clever programmers or designers. Who really knows what goes on behind the curtains.
Well, right now, bug fixing: I am so much anticipating that patch and the reactions. High hopes, high hopes!
THIS is how you should release games.

[mcarlsonus]

Don't like it, don't read it!

QED