[REL] Realistic Sinking Physics - Page 12

CaptainKobuk · 07-19-07, 03:58 AM

Had to remove this MOD. Not a problem. Had fun testing it just like any other excellent MOD idea.

The way i attack any convoy is i first ambush a Destroyer to get some room to fire. Then i let the cargo ships move into my position and mix my noise with the ships and use the ships as shields against Destroyers. Giving great shots at those Destroyers as they swing around to try to drop a can on me.

...what happens when it can take up to 10 torpedoes to sink a Destroyer? Well i found out with this MOD. I took such a huge chunk out of that Destroyer it looked like huge round bite taken out of a sandwiche. Yet that Destroyer had some air pockets so it kept on at 7 knots. Impossible in real life. Because more than just air keeps a ship operational. There's everything electrical and mechanical and no ship can return to port with a 40% hull width deep sized chuck taken out of it amidships.

I think we need to consider a hybrid MOD. "Air pockets" + "physical destruction." The two main factors that destroy a ship are how close to sinking it is from flooding and exactly how much destruction of it's components has occured. If we have to use "hitpoints" to simulate destruction then so be it.

I appreciate the enthusiasm that went into this MOD and look forward to what's next from WernerSobe

kv29 · 07-19-07, 05:54 AM

Hit points must come back.... but how?

WernerSobe · 07-19-07, 08:08 AM

The destroyers are not ment to take so many torpedoes. If that happens then its a bug.

There seems to be something wrong with them. Maybe its just a special one that passed my testings. The destroyers were balanced to sink from one torpedoe. Im trying to find out which one it is and why that happens.

WernerSobe · 07-19-07, 10:03 AM

i can confirm there is a bug with destroyers.

Fubuki and Shiratsuyu destroyers are broken. Its not a bug with damage system but with their compartments. They take no flooding. Also all destroyers take not enough flooding in their first front compartment. Making them hard to sink from the front. Im working on both problems.

Jace11 · 07-19-07, 12:23 PM

I concur, I am using this MOD but the version before hitpoints were taken out completly... I love the slow sinking, but hitpoints are a vital component too for the reasons stated above...

nomad_delta · 07-19-07, 03:06 PM

Are hitpoints only used to determine whether the ship is "destroyed" or not, or are hitpoints also used to determine whether the various components (like props, engines, guns, etc) on the ship are destroyed?

If it's still possible to "disable" a ship by taking out critical components (props/engines/etc) without destroying or sinking it, then it seems to me that hitpoints shouldn't be necessary, as long as the ships still sink via flooding w/ a reasonable number of torpedoes.

nomad_delta

Rockin Robbins · 07-19-07, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

i can confirm there is a bug with destroyers.

Fubuki and Shiratsuyu destroyers are broken. Its not a bug with damage system but with their compartments. They take no flooding. Also all destroyers take not enough flooding in their first front compartment. Making them hard to sink from the front. Im working on both problems.

Here's why Realistic Sinking Physics is a great mod. Werner listens to someone who probably knows nothing about how his wonderful mod is made, criticising his baby. Werner agrees immediately and starts fixing it! He could get defensive and start a flame war, but highly opinionated as Werner is, he is brutally honest even with himself. Thanks for spending your time here in the English forum, Werner. I can't wait to see the solution. In the meantime, shooting merchants is a blast!

I never thought of the ambush destroyers tactic. I'll have to try that after the fix.

WernerSobe · 07-19-07, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomad_delta

Are hitpoints only used to determine whether the ship is "destroyed" or not, or are hitpoints also used to determine whether the various components (like props, engines, guns, etc) on the ship are destroyed?

If it's still possible to "disable" a ship by taking out critical components (props/engines/etc) without destroying or sinking it, then it seems to me that hitpoints shouldn't be necessary, as long as the ships still sink via flooding w/ a reasonable number of torpedoes.

nomad_delta

Actualy there are two different hitpoints system. The one describing the overall hull damage. Imagine it like a simple hitpoints bar in a first person shooter. A ship is considered destroyed when it runs out of overall hitpoints. These are the hitpoints that i have disabled.

Then there is another kind of hitpoints. Every compartment has its own hitpoints and armor levels. Compartments can be destroyed. Compartments that are destroyed will flood up and make other compartments nearby start flooding. Campartments that are damaged (but not destroyed) will flood to a ceartain amount but not more. There is also a crush depth. If a compartment comes below a certain depth it is destroyed. So a well balanced ship is flooding and sinks slowly deeper and deeper until more compartments are geting crushed and cause even faster sinking...

Destroyed compartments (even those that are still flooding) also reduce the displacement. When enough compartments are destroyed and the displacement drops below the mass, ship is considered destroyed (because it will sink for sure) and you get an instant kill.

So far my findings.

Now the reason why some destroyers are not sinking as they should is that they use compartments settings from battleships section. It was modeled by UBI i dont know why they did that. Of course they dont sink.

However im working on a fix and ive already got the fubuki sink properly. Shiratuyu is better now but still a little to strong. Ill fix her too. Also the first compartment of all destroyers takes more water now so they will sink from bow hits too.

Bando · 07-19-07, 03:56 PM

Sounds good to me WernerSobe, awaiting the next one.

CaptainKobuk · 07-19-07, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Quote:

Originally Posted by WernerSobe

i can confirm there is a bug with destroyers.

Fubuki and Shiratsuyu destroyers are broken. Its not a bug with damage system but with their compartments. They take no flooding. Also all destroyers take not enough flooding in their first front compartment. Making them hard to sink from the front. Im working on both problems.

Here's why Realistic Sinking Physics is a great mod. Werner listens to someone who probably knows nothing about how his wonderful mod is made, criticising his baby. Werner agrees immediately and starts fixing it!

Relax captain robbins.

Stock 1.3 PATCHED SH4 still has much too fast sinking times on average.

Yet this MOD still needs more time to perfect in it's 'work-test-work-test' cycle. Let me restate another comment i made...

" I appreciate the enthusiasm that went into this MOD and look forward to what's next from WernerSobe"

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

About the ambush destroyer tactic i mentioned. It's risky business because now ship shoot alot at our periscope. I've been loosing some main periscopes and reverting to the observation scope as a backup. I'm still working on strategy and really it's the most fun of the game, after sinking ships of course. Always the same undeminished thrill for some reason. Guess i'm like a kid that way...

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I understand the basics now about the game's damage system as tought to us by WernerSobe. I was thinking, if it was possible to create some more associative damage in neighboring compartments when a torpedo hits and it's after effects like flooding, then we could minimize some of the problem of compartmentalization. I'm sure he's already implimenting some of this.

The goal i think is to use whatever game engine and code we can to simulate what really happened in WWII when torpedoes hit ships. Clearly there's two obvious extremes to avoid. Too fast sinking and too slow. By slow i mean "partial invulnerability bugs".

Some ships did in fact float around essentially "destroyed" but still on the surface for hours or perhaps even days in calm seas. I like this MODS correct simulation of "abandoning ship". When it's over for the life of that ship the tonnage score is made then and there.

By the way, i noticed that when i destroyed one of the two Fubuki Destroyer propellors it had no effect on it's speed which at the time was 7. Just mentioned that, in case it can be modded to reduce speed if a a single prop goes out.

I will be installing and testing this MODS next version.

WernerSobe · 07-19-07, 07:37 PM

well the drama exposed to be a bigger problem.

For some reason the fubuki and shiratsuyu destroyers both use a compartment layout of a battleship. Its programmed like that there is no way around. I guess its a bug. I can return hitpoints for just these ships it seems to be the only way, making them sink by hitpoints. But at least they sink at all.

Another problem i came across are the weak capital warships. No matter how strong i try to make them, they capsize and sink a little bit to fast in my opinion. I cannot say how weak real carriers and battleships are agains capsizing. But they shouldnt do that every time. This is something i cannot change this is due to their compartment layout.

CaptainKobuk · 07-19-07, 10:52 PM

I concur that the BB's should not roll so much. Having used your MOD out of Manilla twice now sinking the Fusi and Kongo BB's over near west Borneo i know exactly what is going on. They each rolled twice. However the 2 Heavy Cruizers i killed in each career both went down normally.

It appears as though the BB's are correctly modelled as being extremely top heavy. When the flooding occurs in the hull compartments, the heavy top ALWAYS rolls to one side of the other. I don't know. Maybe by adjusting the BB's various stats a solution could be had.

It's all a simulation. Whatever looks the best is what to go with. Whatever mimics WWII naval warfare the closest is the goal.

The other variable in the equation is the torpedoes. Perhaps adjusting them could help achieve a closer reality. I've some experience MODDING those in the Torpedoes_US.zon file. Blast radius and explosive power are two sepertate variables that can be set there.

Repeated in game testing by tipping the ballances between the variables could eventually achieve the decent simulation we're all looking for. Others here know a lot about WWII sub warfare and have seen a lot of video documentaries. As well as studied the science of it all. I think we should seek their input and see where to take this to.

One thing to keep in mind is how devastating a big hole in a ship's hull really is. I know something of sailing boats and though not near to the way a steel hulled ship, it's clear a torpedo hit that successfully explodes as intended will always cause a major hull breach.

The funniest thing about this game is the way torpedoes hit squarely and often cause no visible damage. Maybe in SH5 that will be corrected. Until then we can just be happy the series has come this far. Way beyond the early days in the mid 90's when 4mb of ram was a lot to have

Aces of the Deep was pretty basic.

tater · 07-19-07, 11:13 PM

^^^ interesting observation about the CG. There is a thread about the scale of the ships (looks fine) that suggests that they may be riding too high in the water, wonder if this has something to do with what you suggest?

tater

supposedtobeworking · 07-20-07, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainKobuk

The funniest thing about this game is the way torpedoes hit squarely and often cause no visible damage. Maybe in SH5 that will be corrected.

hmmm I was hoping this was a bug which was fixed .. apparently not? that sucks. Any tips on keeping that from happening?

switch.dota · 07-20-07, 02:33 AM

Yes, don't use Mk14s until after '43. The magnetic early explosions just before the hull are the culprit.

07-19-07, 10:03 AM	#169
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	i can confirm there is a bug with destroyers. Fubuki and Shiratsuyu destroyers are broken. Its not a bug with damage system but with their compartments. They take no flooding. Also all destroyers take not enough flooding in their first front compartment. Making them hard to sink from the front. Im working on both problems. Last edited by WernerSobe; 07-19-07 at 10:26 AM.

07-19-07, 03:56 PM	#174
Bando Commodore Join Date: May 2007 Location: Where you don't see me Posts: 607 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	Sounds good to me WernerSobe, awaiting the next one. __________________ Regards, Bando

07-19-07, 03:58 AM	#166
CaptainKobuk Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 107 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Had to remove this MOD. Not a problem. Had fun testing it just like any other excellent MOD idea. The way i attack any convoy is i first ambush a Destroyer to get some room to fire. Then i let the cargo ships move into my position and mix my noise with the ships and use the ships as shields against Destroyers. Giving great shots at those Destroyers as they swing around to try to drop a can on me. ...what happens when it can take up to 10 torpedoes to sink a Destroyer? Well i found out with this MOD. I took such a huge chunk out of that Destroyer it looked like huge round bite taken out of a sandwiche. Yet that Destroyer had some air pockets so it kept on at 7 knots. Impossible in real life. Because more than just air keeps a ship operational. There's everything electrical and mechanical and no ship can return to port with a 40% hull width deep sized chuck taken out of it amidships. I think we need to consider a hybrid MOD. "Air pockets" + "physical destruction." The two main factors that destroy a ship are how close to sinking it is from flooding and exactly how much destruction of it's components has occured. If we have to use "hitpoints" to simulate destruction then so be it. I appreciate the enthusiasm that went into this MOD and look forward to what's next from WernerSobe

07-19-07, 05:54 AM	#167
kv29 Watch Officer Join Date: May 2007 Location: Buenos Aires Posts: 342 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Hit points must come back.... but how?

07-19-07, 08:08 AM	#168
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The destroyers are not ment to take so many torpedoes. If that happens then its a bug. There seems to be something wrong with them. Maybe its just a special one that passed my testings. The destroyers were balanced to sink from one torpedoe. Im trying to find out which one it is and why that happens.

07-19-07, 12:23 PM	#170
Jace11 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UK Posts: 683 Downloads: 104 Uploads: 1	I concur, I am using this MOD but the version before hitpoints were taken out completly... I love the slow sinking, but hitpoints are a vital component too for the reasons stated above...

07-19-07, 03:06 PM	#171
nomad_delta Planesman Join Date: May 2007 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 185 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Are hitpoints only used to determine whether the ship is "destroyed" or not, or are hitpoints also used to determine whether the various components (like props, engines, guns, etc) on the ship are destroyed? If it's still possible to "disable" a ship by taking out critical components (props/engines/etc) without destroying or sinking it, then it seems to me that hitpoints shouldn't be necessary, as long as the ships still sink via flooding w/ a reasonable number of torpedoes. nomad_delta

07-19-07, 07:37 PM	#176
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	well the drama exposed to be a bigger problem. For some reason the fubuki and shiratsuyu destroyers both use a compartment layout of a battleship. Its programmed like that there is no way around. I guess its a bug. I can return hitpoints for just these ships it seems to be the only way, making them sink by hitpoints. But at least they sink at all. Another problem i came across are the weak capital warships. No matter how strong i try to make them, they capsize and sink a little bit to fast in my opinion. I cannot say how weak real carriers and battleships are agains capsizing. But they shouldnt do that every time. This is something i cannot change this is due to their compartment layout.

07-19-07, 10:52 PM	#177
CaptainKobuk Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 107 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I concur that the BB's should not roll so much. Having used your MOD out of Manilla twice now sinking the Fusi and Kongo BB's over near west Borneo i know exactly what is going on. They each rolled twice. However the 2 Heavy Cruizers i killed in each career both went down normally. It appears as though the BB's are correctly modelled as being extremely top heavy. When the flooding occurs in the hull compartments, the heavy top ALWAYS rolls to one side of the other. I don't know. Maybe by adjusting the BB's various stats a solution could be had. It's all a simulation. Whatever looks the best is what to go with. Whatever mimics WWII naval warfare the closest is the goal. The other variable in the equation is the torpedoes. Perhaps adjusting them could help achieve a closer reality. I've some experience MODDING those in the Torpedoes_US.zon file. Blast radius and explosive power are two sepertate variables that can be set there. Repeated in game testing by tipping the ballances between the variables could eventually achieve the decent simulation we're all looking for. Others here know a lot about WWII sub warfare and have seen a lot of video documentaries. As well as studied the science of it all. I think we should seek their input and see where to take this to. One thing to keep in mind is how devastating a big hole in a ship's hull really is. I know something of sailing boats and though not near to the way a steel hulled ship, it's clear a torpedo hit that successfully explodes as intended will always cause a major hull breach. The funniest thing about this game is the way torpedoes hit squarely and often cause no visible damage. Maybe in SH5 that will be corrected. Until then we can just be happy the series has come this far. Way beyond the early days in the mid 90's when 4mb of ram was a lot to have Aces of the Deep was pretty basic.

07-19-07, 11:13 PM	#178
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	^^^ interesting observation about the CG. There is a thread about the scale of the ships (looks fine) that suggests that they may be riding too high in the water, wonder if this has something to do with what you suggest? tater

07-20-07, 02:33 AM	#180
switch.dota Captain Join Date: May 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 492 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Yes, don't use Mk14s until after '43. The magnetic early explosions just before the hull are the culprit.