Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Jimbuna]

Not too lively I hope....I'm looking forward to a quiet peaceful weekend.

[Betonov]

You affraid of a little world war Jim ??

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Betonov

You affraid of a little world war Jim ??

I reckon you know me a lot better than that Anze

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Well this thread may become livier over this weekend, as Ukranian loyalists are preparing for a major offensive, which Russia could respond to in force.

an offensive where? towards Moscow?
Russia's interventions in sovereign countries are nothing new.

[ikalugin]

Against the separatists of course.

Please correct me if i am wrong, but Russia (after the early 90s) has (openly) intervened only in those cases:
- Georgia in 2008 after an act of aggression again Russia.
- Ukraine 2014 (Crimea, possibly in the South-East).

[August]

Just to be clear here those aren't acts of aggression against Russia those are internal conflicts in foreign countries. Russia is not the injured party here and has no right to claim it is acting in self defense.

Russia chooses to foment and support rebellions in those foreign countries for purely imperialistic reasons.

[ikalugin]

Attacking Russian peace keepers (legaly stationed there) was an act of aggression by Georgia against Russia, hence that war was completely justified.

Ukranian crisis is not as clear cut of course, however Crimean part of it was essentially bloodless.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

Russian peace keepers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxymoron

I can perfectly understand now why some people use the 'ignore button'.

[ikalugin]

So you lack any actual arguments then?

Or do you happen to have factual proof as to Russian peacekeeping force in question (pre 080808 war in South Osetia) loosing it's internationally recognised status?

P.s. There is an "ignore" button? Never saw it.

[Skybird]

Georgia's claim for Ossetia always was a very dubious one. It militarily conquered and occupied Ossetia in the 20s and committed a massacre that many Ossetian people see as genocide until today. During the Sovjet era, Ossetia was attached to the Sovjet Republic Georgia, an act that Stalin directly was responsible for. After the fall of the USSR, Ossetia and Abchasia, made it clear that they did not wish to stay with the former Sovjet Republic, and declared their relative autonomy as sovereignty, refusing any Georgian claim for them. Both countries made it clear that they wish closer ties with Russia. Throughout the 90s and early 00-years, many Ossetians and Abchasians voluntarily signed for Russian citizenship.

The war of 1991 was clearly initiated by Georgia, both politically and militarily, it started from exchanges of fire at border control posts, and ended in grenade shelling of the Ossetian capital by Georgian military. In the final war, tens of thousands of people fled Georgia and Ossetia, and finally Russia intervened and separated both conflicting parties, keeping them apart for years.

When Saakashvili came to power, Georgia again planned to subjugate Ossetia by force, there were plans for that already in 2005, and they finally came to life in 2008. Before, there were free and democratic referendums in Ossetia, parallel to the claimed supranational elections by Georgia which were boycotted by Ossetia. The Ossetian people clearly said by huge majority that they do not wish to have anything to do with the Georgians, and that they do not wish to be ruled by Georgia.

This was the historic background against which the events of the war 2008 and the way the war unfolded, have to be judged. In the West, EU and US alike, it was almost completely ignored and the media did little to report it. Washington wanted Georgia in NATO to tighten its strangling grip around Russia. Historic truths and democratic majority decisions that led to unwanted results, were just an obstacle that therefore was concealed. To me, Georgia always was the main aggressor in all this, due to its claim to own and possess a people that it n ever had any legitimate claim for and that it only could suppress by Stalinist decree, military occupation and genocide. Moscow of course welcomed the Ossetian and Abchasian independence moves that were friendly towards Russian interests. Since that were free and legitimate expressions of people'S will, nothing was wrong in that. Moscow could happily have lived without that war of 2008. Georgia's Saakashvili on the other hand lied, betrayed and cheated the West in an attempt to get NATO intervening in a war with Russia, overplayed his cards and did not even stop from ordering the nightly bombardement of civilian apartment blocks by missile artillery, then blaiming Russia for it. In the years after the war, even the highly biased EU finally had to relaise in its own exmainatio9ns of events that it allowed to get fooled by this thug and concluded that he lied, they then turned him into a diplomatic pariah. Since then Saakashvili ruled like just any other autocratic tyrant, suppressing opposition by means of a police state, by police violence, and intimidation of the media.

Nice choice for an ally by Washington. Once again. As they say: the cause justifies the means.

I judge this from a libertarian POV. The Ossetians were heavily mistreated by the Georgians since decades, and feely decided that they wish to stay for themselves. This wish has to be respected. Period. Whether Washington strategists like that, or the EU approves that, or the UN agrees to that, is unimportant. The people are free to decide whether they want to stay alone, or join this or that side.

For the same reason, I am for splitting the Ukraine. My main argument for that again is a truly libertarian one. The Ukraine forces together by ink-lines on paper two ethnic groups in different parts of country, that obviously are oriented to two different poles that cannot cooperate well together. Instead of creating pressure and conflict, accept their right to make their choice, and so have the place split.

And for the same reason, i would have accepted a Scottish Yes to independence, and do support Falkland'S claim to stay Brtish instead of joining Argentine; and for the same reason I declare illegal the Spanish constitutional claim to deny local people like the Catalunians the right to hold a referendum on their own future. Any such law necessarily is an illegal law, and immoral anyway. The Catalunians are not Madrid'S possessions, they are nbot trhe otzher Spnaiards'S slaves.

The same is true for any other independence movement that represents a majority of a region's population.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by ikalugin

P.s. There is an "ignore" button? Never saw it.

You can add someone to 'ignore' by clicking on their name and selecting View Public Profile then selecting User Lists then selecting Add to Ignore List.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

You can add someone to 'ignore' by clicking on their name and selecting View Public Profile then selecting User Lists then selecting Add to Ignore List.

Jim, he does that even without putting anyone to the list. Just skim through his previous posts in this thread.

[ikalugin]

I suggest you watch the recent Valdai speach by Putin.

On the Ukranian matters, it appears that the build up of loyalist forces continues, as do the artillery strikes against separatists positions (recent attacks on the Donetsk were particularly well documented). Hence separatists have declared that they would no longer abide by the ceasefire, as loyalists clearly don't.

At the same time it is reported that Russian military aid (atleast in the form of supplies) has been resumed.

Last but not least:
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20141024/1029903925.html
Increase in the military budget of 2015 by a third was reported.

[ikalugin]

Приглашение.jpg
And so the cookie crumbles.

[Oberon]

Was only a matter of time, lots of Euros in that deal, and money is in demand in Europe at the moment.