Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine - Page 114

ikalugin · 09-30-14, 09:10 AM

How are Germans the front line defenders of NATO? They are in second operational echelon at best, more like second strategic echelon actually. First line defense of NATO is actually in Norway/Poland/Romania/Turkey, as Baltic states are little more than a tripwire.

That said, there is very little in terms of offensive capability arrayed against those countries in question, I mean the only external threats are Belarussia and some Russian units, which are a shadow of the Soviet forces.

Skybird · 09-30-14, 10:08 AM

In probably every army you have a smaller group of actual combat forces doing the firefighting, and then the much bigger group that is the logistic apparatus, intel, planning, etc.

Revealing about the state of German forces and the maybe too big disproportion between these two is the harmlessly sounding comment of a German correspondent that I read maybe two weeks ago. He was travelling two German foreign mission engagement camps since years. And what he said, was this: "It is strange, no matter to which country I go and on which continent I travel - it seems as if I am always meeting the same couple of German faces in those BW camps."

At the same time, leaving the draw behind has put tremendous strain onto the BW, many potentially recruits coming voluntarily are folding within the first months (which they can), and the forces simply cannot meet the personnel demands that they would need. Quality of recruits is declining. Moral is low, trainings is constantly declining and leaves lacking, and even reservists helping out in training new recruits say that the training status now maintained in the regular forces and base courses, is lousy, that they cannot believe the deficits in even most elemental skills that they see in today'S recruits.

A main cause of course is money. Germany has cut the budget beyond the limits of sanity, and at the same time has overblown the bureaucratic apparatus that this apparatus now is so ineffectively that over ten percent of the yearly budget for the military cannot be allocated - due to the inefficiency of the bureaucracy that bogs things down. At the same time the German forces for several years now are operating with a full stop in regarding ordering maintenance and spare parts. The status we see now is due to the age of the equipment, yes, but we see that state also in brandnew equipment already. That is because more and more funcitonal equipment got cannibalised to repair broken down equipment, and more and more deficits in maintenance have accumulated over the past years in which no spare parts and maintenance were ordered.

That the majority of units that Berlin has reported to NATO headquarter as being ready and available within a 180 days warning period in case of an article 5 scenario, would not be able to be delivered, speaks volumes. The simple truth is: Germany is no longer able to keep up with its alliance commitments. In case of need we would be able to bring half of our systems and equipment into operational status - I think that now would already been seen as a successful mobilization. We are lucky that the Poles are guarding our Eastern border. It would probably be the Poles needing to help us out, instead of German coming to Poland's rescue. Which maybe is indicative for the misery: we are surrounded by currently non-hostile nations: Denmark, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Netherlands. Why should we maintain a big, huge army? - that is the politician's reasoning.

And then came the Ukraine crisis crushing some precious illusions. What a pity. Why has the Kremlin been so unpolite to us?

We have some other illusions of this kind, too, regarding our increasingly eroding infrastructure, and our school education quality. Germany's facade of shining wealth and economic strength - is just a fata morgana, we "maintain" it on credit only, but the truth is we are suffering structural erosion at the very root level, at the inner substance of things. The interests additional to the costs on final payday will kill us.

The Bundeswehr had a top reputation during the cold war, and back then it5 certainly also was a front line state. It is not top class anymore. Not even second choice, to admit it freely, I think.

ikalugin · 09-30-14, 11:39 AM

According to this Ukraine plans to double GDP per capita and increase it's defense spending by 2020 (amongs other strange things).

Skybird · 09-30-14, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

According to this Ukraine plans to double GDP per capita and increase it's defense spending by 2020 (amongs other strange things).

Hohoho, good to know that presents fall from heaven for free! Or did Poroshenko take lessons from Francois Hollande...?

Skybird · 09-30-14, 03:17 PM

And today more news from the German forces: the manufacturer of the Eurofighter has told the Luftwaffe that there are manufacturing faults at the tails of the plane, and problems with drilling holes, that could lead to massively increased wear and tear, loss of parts from the airframe, and a halving of the airframe's life expectancy. The Luftwaffe was advised to half the number of monthly operation hours

- at least of those 43 of 100+ planes that still are operational.

the others already cannot fly anyway.

Catfish · 09-30-14, 03:40 PM

Hahahah and they took our money to build this crap and leave us in the desert, whlie they knew about it all along, glorious patriotism meeting lobby capitalism hahahah

.
.
.
.

Skybird · 09-30-14, 05:05 PM

Mind you, these multi-national productions of military gear like the Eurofighter consortium are politically wanted. Technical reasons and competition have little to do with it. Same for the Puma: it was politically wanted to make it in Germany and do it this way and in no other, else there would have been a serious competition by several producers of IFVs who would have send in their offers. What was wrong with the CV90/xx or the Ulan? Nothing! They are great IFVs from all I have heard about them.

The British Typhoons should be affected by this new problem, too, since it is a manufacturing fault. The German LW now has stopped to accept any further planes being delivered.

Aquiring new G-36 rifles has been stopped some time ago, too, due to their inbuild problems and serious usage limitations in combat situations.

Oh my... Now the producer of the Leopard wants to fuse with the French major tank maker who builds the Leclerk. A technology transfer program from Germany to France. The Germans get eaten, the French profit. Once the French have what they wanted (know-how, that is) - guess what comes next... The Germans argue that the French would open them new access markets. What the...? Just compare the export numbers and customer lists for the Leclerk and the Leopards, and then tell me about the need for French customer lists!

Oberon · 09-30-14, 10:31 PM

Do we need to start a 'German armed forces complaints department' thread?

magic452 · 10-01-14, 12:42 AM

Nope we already have one.

Magic

Oberon · 10-01-14, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magic452

Nope we already have one.

Magic

Is it in Danzig?

ikalugin · 10-01-14, 06:19 AM

Well I mean there isn't much to discuss in this thread now apart from the ability of Russia to press Marshal Frost into service for this winter.

B.c. if he does come to the Ukraine, I think that doubling GDP per capita may actually be possible, by halving the population.

Skybird · 10-01-14, 06:46 AM

Hijacking this thread for the German forces issues is a thread preservation measurement.

Skybird · 10-01-14, 07:04 AM

And while we are already at it

, the one A400M having an engine test and being planned to be delivered to the Germans in November (Jim linked the story) - it now is in doubt that the German Luftwaffe will accept that plane. Talking is of severe "deficiency delivery" ("Minderleistung") by the consortium building the plane, putting its military usability into doubt. Also, legal considerations come into play, the defence ministry wants at last contract penalty fees or other financial compensations (after the consortium has blackmailed Germany with wanting to sue it and to cut jobs if it does not accept a much higher price).

kranz · 10-01-14, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ikalugin

p.p.p.s (o dear) I can even pay for the plane tickets and your stay if you can't afford them.

no, thanks. I'm too young for HIV.

ikalugin · 10-01-14, 08:52 AM

There are free tickets to Kubinka though.

Back on topic:

His son was tortured to death by loyalists. His father was -just- tortured by loyalists. Not an easy life for a separatist (though we still need an independent investigation onto those events ofc).

Ahh, and human organs trafficing buisness in Ukraine is blooming due to the all displaced civilians and the ability to blame everything on the "terrorists".

09-30-14, 10:08 AM	#1697
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,669 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	In probably every army you have a smaller group of actual combat forces doing the firefighting, and then the much bigger group that is the logistic apparatus, intel, planning, etc. Revealing about the state of German forces and the maybe too big disproportion between these two is the harmlessly sounding comment of a German correspondent that I read maybe two weeks ago. He was travelling two German foreign mission engagement camps since years. And what he said, was this: "It is strange, no matter to which country I go and on which continent I travel - it seems as if I am always meeting the same couple of German faces in those BW camps." At the same time, leaving the draw behind has put tremendous strain onto the BW, many potentially recruits coming voluntarily are folding within the first months (which they can), and the forces simply cannot meet the personnel demands that they would need. Quality of recruits is declining. Moral is low, trainings is constantly declining and leaves lacking, and even reservists helping out in training new recruits say that the training status now maintained in the regular forces and base courses, is lousy, that they cannot believe the deficits in even most elemental skills that they see in today'S recruits. A main cause of course is money. Germany has cut the budget beyond the limits of sanity, and at the same time has overblown the bureaucratic apparatus that this apparatus now is so ineffectively that over ten percent of the yearly budget for the military cannot be allocated - due to the inefficiency of the bureaucracy that bogs things down. At the same time the German forces for several years now are operating with a full stop in regarding ordering maintenance and spare parts. The status we see now is due to the age of the equipment, yes, but we see that state also in brandnew equipment already. That is because more and more funcitonal equipment got cannibalised to repair broken down equipment, and more and more deficits in maintenance have accumulated over the past years in which no spare parts and maintenance were ordered. That the majority of units that Berlin has reported to NATO headquarter as being ready and available within a 180 days warning period in case of an article 5 scenario, would not be able to be delivered, speaks volumes. The simple truth is: Germany is no longer able to keep up with its alliance commitments. In case of need we would be able to bring half of our systems and equipment into operational status - I think that now would already been seen as a successful mobilization. We are lucky that the Poles are guarding our Eastern border. It would probably be the Poles needing to help us out, instead of German coming to Poland's rescue. Which maybe is indicative for the misery: we are surrounded by currently non-hostile nations: Denmark, Poland, Czech Republic, Austria, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Netherlands. Why should we maintain a big, huge army? - that is the politician's reasoning. And then came the Ukraine crisis crushing some precious illusions. What a pity. Why has the Kremlin been so unpolite to us? We have some other illusions of this kind, too, regarding our increasingly eroding infrastructure, and our school education quality. Germany's facade of shining wealth and economic strength - is just a fata morgana, we "maintain" it on credit only, but the truth is we are suffering structural erosion at the very root level, at the inner substance of things. The interests additional to the costs on final payday will kill us. The Bundeswehr had a top reputation during the cold war, and back then it5 certainly also was a front line state. It is not top class anymore. Not even second choice, to admit it freely, I think. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-30-14, 11:39 AM	#1698
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	According to this Ukraine plans to double GDP per capita and increase it's defense spending by 2020 (amongs other strange things). stuff

09-30-14, 03:17 PM	#1700
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,669 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	And today more news from the German forces: the manufacturer of the Eurofighter has told the Luftwaffe that there are manufacturing faults at the tails of the plane, and problems with drilling holes, that could lead to massively increased wear and tear, loss of parts from the airframe, and a halving of the airframe's life expectancy. The Luftwaffe was advised to half the number of monthly operation hours - at least of those 43 of 100+ planes that still are operational. the others already cannot fly anyway. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-30-14, 05:05 PM	#1702
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,669 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Mind you, these multi-national productions of military gear like the Eurofighter consortium are politically wanted. Technical reasons and competition have little to do with it. Same for the Puma: it was politically wanted to make it in Germany and do it this way and in no other, else there would have been a serious competition by several producers of IFVs who would have send in their offers. What was wrong with the CV90/xx or the Ulan? Nothing! They are great IFVs from all I have heard about them. The British Typhoons should be affected by this new problem, too, since it is a manufacturing fault. The German LW now has stopped to accept any further planes being delivered. Aquiring new G-36 rifles has been stopped some time ago, too, due to their inbuild problems and serious usage limitations in combat situations. Oh my... Now the producer of the Leopard wants to fuse with the French major tank maker who builds the Leclerk. A technology transfer program from Germany to France. The Germans get eaten, the French profit. Once the French have what they wanted (know-how, that is) - guess what comes next... The Germans argue that the French would open them new access markets. What the...? Just compare the export numbers and customer lists for the Leclerk and the Leopards, and then tell me about the need for French customer lists! __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-14, 12:42 AM	#1704
magic452 Sea Lord Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Reno Nevada USA Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 85 Uploads: 0	Nope we already have one. Magic __________________ Reported lost 11 Feb. 1942 Signature by depthtok33l

09-30-14, 09:10 AM	#1696
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	How are Germans the front line defenders of NATO? They are in second operational echelon at best, more like second strategic echelon actually. First line defense of NATO is actually in Norway/Poland/Romania/Turkey, as Baltic states are little more than a tripwire. That said, there is very little in terms of offensive capability arrayed against those countries in question, I mean the only external threats are Belarussia and some Russian units, which are a shadow of the Soviet forces.

09-30-14, 03:40 PM	#1701
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 16,913 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Hahahah and they took our money to build this crap and leave us in the desert, whlie they knew about it all along, glorious patriotism meeting lobby capitalism hahahah . . . .

09-30-14, 10:31 PM	#1703
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Do we need to start a 'German armed forces complaints department' thread?

10-01-14, 06:19 AM	#1706
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Well I mean there isn't much to discuss in this thread now apart from the ability of Russia to press Marshal Frost into service for this winter. B.c. if he does come to the Ukraine, I think that doubling GDP per capita may actually be possible, by halving the population.

10-01-14, 06:46 AM	#1707
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,669 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Hijacking this thread for the German forces issues is a thread preservation measurement. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-14, 07:04 AM	#1708
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,669 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	And while we are already at it , the one A400M having an engine test and being planned to be delivered to the Germans in November (Jim linked the story) - it now is in doubt that the German Luftwaffe will accept that plane. Talking is of severe "deficiency delivery" ("Minderleistung") by the consortium building the plane, putting its military usability into doubt. Also, legal considerations come into play, the defence ministry wants at last contract penalty fees or other financial compensations (after the consortium has blackmailed Germany with wanting to sue it and to cut jobs if it does not accept a much higher price). __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

10-01-14, 08:52 AM	#1710
ikalugin Ocean Warrior Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 3,212 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	There are free tickets to Kubinka though. Back on topic: His son was tortured to death by loyalists. His father was -just- tortured by loyalists. Not an easy life for a separatist (though we still need an independent investigation onto those events ofc). Ahh, and human organs trafficing buisness in Ukraine is blooming due to the all displaced civilians and the ability to blame everything on the "terrorists". Last edited by ikalugin; 10-01-14 at 09:12 AM.