'Seawolves' contains Mods by...

[lifer]

I think it's sad what X1 is not only doing to SH3 but to this community as well. This used to be such a "quiet and friendly" place but now people start insulting each other.

Relax everybody. Just don't buy Seawolves and spread the word. But don't let this addon 'destroy' our community.

Originally Posted by lifer

I think it's sad what X1 is not only doing to SH3 but to this community as well. This used to be such a "quiet and friendly" place but now people start insulting each other.

Relax everybody. Just don't buy Seawolves and spread the word. But don't let this addon 'destroy' our community.

IMHO this community is too strong to be destroyed by the 'Seewolves Mod Scam' - there are much more interesting things coming up than a commercial repack of things freely available...

[Abraham]

This community is certainly too strong to be destructed by an Experimental Mk. 1...
The Avon Lady and her people were insulted by Deathping, but see how disinguished her reaction was (and she has won fame as a figter on the General Forum).

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Oh my!

All who shouted Dive... dive... dive... can blow their tanks.

[Shadow9216]

Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting.

Originally Posted by Shadow9216

Okay folks. Can't we all just get along? :P

Wulfmann, I tried to respond to you last night but my modem failed so I went to bed. I wanted to thank you for your rational response to my post. It shows you are not only capable of dispassionate discussion (although I never doubted that), but that you are willing to engage in such a dialogue.

It's interesting that you have a quote from undoubtedly one of the most heated debates in history in your sig block. I'd like to ask all parties to this debate to pause for a moment and think about how we're handling ourselves in this debate.

If I may, let me summarize a few of the key issues:

1) It is alleged that X1 appropriated derivative works for commercial gain without prior approval
2) A grass-roots movement calling for a ban on X1 has been called for, prior to any "official" pronouncement of guilt
3) Proponents and opponents of the ban are at an impasse, and the situation has turned ugly

As to the first contention:
There are at least 3 mods whose origination can be identified/attributed, especially as they are included as stand-alone "options" (ie not an inherent part of the "new" mod)

a) Map Contact
b) Bearing Overlay
c) Plotting Tool

The modders in question are Pato, Observer and (IIRC) Cloudbait.

I submit that if X1 and/or any of these gentlemen (ladies?) were respond that they have/gave permission to use these works, then the claim of theft would be disproven. Contrarily, if X1 is unable/unwilling to provide such evidence AND any of the modders in question responds that they did NOT give such permission, then the claim of misappropriation would stand. Note that I say "AND"- X1's silence can not be used against them. At this point, although I do not believe they are innocent, I wouldn't blame them for refusing to comment- they may even be barred from comment due to legal proceedings. At any rate, the 5th Ammendment to the US Constitution provides the right to avoid self-incrimination ("You have the right to remain silent"). Silence in this case may not be inferred to indicate guilt. As I am an American, I will afford X1 this protection.

(As an aside, I did see Observer post that he did not give permission. That's one of the three.)

Now to the 2nd contention, the proposed ban on X1 products. This has provoked much controversy. Is such a ban appropriate? Is it legal? Is it ethical?

If contention #1, misappropriation of works, is proven then some response is suitable- in this case, a refusal to purchase the material would be about the ONLY avenue open to the general community. Therefore the ban in and of itself appears to be an acceptable result.

The timing, though, seems to be the linchpin to the debate (note, I didn't spell it "lynchpin"). Wulfmann indicates he is willing to join the ban WHEN it has been proven to his satisfaction that contention 1 is true. Wulfmann, I would ask you to supply the criteria under which this may occur.

Let the record show I am NOT in the employ of X1, nor am I working for Wulfmann. I would like to see this forum return to the cohesive unit it once was. Wulfmann is afraid of a "mob mentality", so I'm trying to impose some order and establish guidelines for rational discourse- please excuse my presumption.

Finally, contention #3, the impasse. Wulfmann's seeming intransigence has provoked some into claiming he works for "the enemy". He in turn has resorted to some unpleasant labelling. Each side is fulfilling the worst fears of the other, and now we are joined by Deathping, who may or may not in fact be X1.

Can we agree that, this debate aside, Wulfmann has been a positive member of this community? That he has contributed on several occasions? If so, then let's back off a little bit. Wulfmann, I ask you, too, to throttle back a little and remind us that you are a part of the team that is the Subsim forum and the SH3 community.

Folks, this is the first online forum I've been a member of. It's been great, I love the experience. Let's remember the common ground that brought us all together and use that to determine our course. Let's not let emotion and passion fragment us, and turn us against one another.

Apologies to all for another long-winded post. Hopefully you're all too exhausted from reading it to continue fighting.

I'm not exhausted..thanks for your post. Let me add a few comments though.

Not three, but eleven unauthorized mod inclusions have been detected so far. And the list (discussions and evaluation is going on at places you may not have access to...I don't know) is getting longer almost any minute.


I understand that you (me too..) would like to have a 'better' online world. But this is a discussion forum and there are things that have to be discussed - at least a lot of people think so...

And AFAIK the 'Seawolves' issue currently has not been solved yet. The only fair solution X1 could come up with would be to release only their proprietary work (which would easily fit on a floppy...) and to apologize publically.

From all public and - the more - private conversations and disputes with X1's owner and folks afiliated with X1 I doubt his will ever happen.

If I'd publish all private BS that was sent to me by X1 the last days everyone would understand easily that the ONLY goal of his company is to make a fast buck...: Nothing but disrespect for the gamers, modders and this community was shown by them, and the personal insults in their mails are simply...disgusting.

[Shadow9216]

Not three, but eleven unauthorized mod inclusions have been detected so far. And the list (discussions and evaluation is going on at places you may not have access to...I don't know) is getting longer almost any minute.

I only listed the 3 that I could remember off the top of my head- I'm at work right now- but I figured 3 was more than enough to prove the case. Frankly even one example is enough.

I understand that you (me too..) would like to have a 'better' online world. But this is a discussion forum and there are things that have to be discussed - at least a lot of people think so...

Agree with you 100%, and this MUST be discussed- but the discussion was starting to drift from the main point, which is X1's (apparent) theft of others' work. My post was an attempt to remind everyone who our anger should be directed toward.

X1's attitude has been manifested clearly. It is arrogant and offensive to say the least. If I tried to offer up Shadow's Ultimate Pack, containing New and Improved Convoys, a Real U-Boat, and all new Harbor Traffic, you all would rightfully hound me out into the streets. But this is why I tried to defuse the situation which was starting to arise...especially with Deathping's additions. Once the flame wars start, the focus will shift away from the main issues.

I wanted to clarify what exactly we're arguing for/against here. It's not a case of "us" and "them", it's what will happen to X1 as a result of their actions.

Hopefully no one thought I was attempting to censor the debate, or inhibit anyone's freedom of expression; it would be of great benefit to X1 and/or like-minded individuals for us to lose focus and cohesion due to a degeneration into personal attacks.

[Abraham]

Thanks Shadow9216 for your wise postings.
I have no issues with Wulfmann nor should anyone. Wulfmann have defended his position - which is his right - and is not the cause of the chaos.
You stated "Now we are joined by Deathping..."
I do not agree. First of all this community cannot be joined by Deathping because his statements are unworthy to this community.
Secondly I have the idea that his posting was a "One ping only!" ("The Hunt for Red October" in case I am misunderstood) and that he will not even try to join us anymore.
As so often in sub(sim) warfare: don't use your active sonar!
The solidarity and restrained shown by all who took part in this discussion, including Wulfmann and The Avon Lady, has made the community stronger and the topic easier to discuss.
We may not all be good friends, we may not all agree, but we are certainly a community.
Arguments belong at the General Forum (where I'm heading now).

[Wulfmann]

9216, you would certainly be tough in a court room, LOL In a good way!!

Fact, I don't argue with my enemies. I only passionately debate my friends, physical or virtual. I don't like seeing my friends getting carried away in a negative situation, at least before actual facts have been established.

I am still not convinced X-1 intentionally tried to steal and hide that they were doing such to gain monetarily. It makes no logical sense. It would discredit them to the point of no gain to loss and hurt any chance of future involvement.

It is also possible they were ignorant to assume they could package this stuff up and offer to the masses that are not install savvy. Anyone that believes most user are able to figure out modding should note how many of us have trouble, "Sie Experten".. It is not a bad idea but they obviously erred in their approach. That is trying to diplomatically give them the benefit of the doubt until it is proven they acted with malice intent.

Please note my labels of fanatical mob mentality. That is what it looks like. That does not mean I think anyone here is a Nazi or member of the KKK. Many decent people were incited to do the work of these groups by inflamed rhetoric. Many have become those decent people. Proof???? I asked for proof and was promptly labeled one of them there enemy people, ya, he must be one of them, Get Wulfmann, LOL It really is kind of funny to me!!!!

I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.

It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.

Be back in a few minutes.

Wulfmann

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

I am still not convinced X-1 intentionally tried to steal and hide that they were doing such to gain monetarily. It makes no logical sense. It would discredit them to the point of no gain to loss and hurt any chance of future involvement.

The word is "amateurs". Possibly "shysters" is appropriate as well.

It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.

All's well, TG!

We're all watching live over the Net, while the spaghetti boils.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Wulfmann

...I must now break my thought and step out side. Will finish this as I am half posting.
It is 10.32 and T- minus 7 minutes. I normally would not step outside for a launch, but this one is special.
Be back in a few minutes.
Wulfmann

You can actually see a launch from where you are???!!!

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

You can actually see a launch from where you are???!!!

Obviously surfaced somewhere off the Florida coast.

[Wulfmann]

The view from my house. Not like when I briefly worked there and was very close so I had to look straight up when it went, but this was an important flight for us all..

I have sent my second email to X-1 and have asked for some explanations and made some suggestions. I will post anything or the lack of it when I receive a response.
Rather than post my request as a challenge, I will allow X-1 to say what ever they feel and hope they not only are aware of this degraded situation but in hopes they have resolved any permission problems.

Hawker, I went to bed before your response and just now saw your request.
My point was that while many are outraged that X-1 will sell this (reportedly for $25.00 Euros) and they will make big bucks at the expense of many freeware modders but then you state doubts that anyone would buy a donation ware product for maybe $5-7.00. Can you not see that if no one would want it for a small amount, there is no reason at all to think others would pay five times that. That is what I find funny, it would negate any reason for any concern of the entire subject!!!
From other projects I can tell you there are 5-10-50 lookers that do not participate in these forums. I include my email on freeware and have often helped people with installs that have never posted on a forum.
There would be many people that would love to have a mod package with a self installer that will never attempt a download or mod. Put in the CD, click install and turn on the game. More, many more, are like that than will mod.

UboatRealsim is apparently unwilling to post the number of time mods have been downloaded where most sights list the number. I again ask they do so to better inform us as to the comparison with the number of buyers of SH3 and those that mod it.
I think most would find a self installed mod package would be well recived, particularly at a reasonable price of $10.00 or less.

For me, I like the building it up myself as many here do so it is not for me. But it is naive to assume anyone sees things like the next guy.

Wulfmann

[Catfish]

Hello,
while i'm really positively astonished how balanced in a way all the people react and behave i still like to know what a "shyster" is ??

I will not apologize for this sorry fellow-countryman "Deathping", or Trombke guy, neither will i feel ashamed - but i was close . Did not know before that the Israelian flag is "antigermitic" - sounds like a skin disease . And then he wonders what a "jewish person" does with a german sub simulator ?! I wonder whether there are two directors of X1, one alone can't be that ... err, ok.

Greetings,
Catfish

[Seminole]

I just read through all the posts and I have to say it is a tempest in a teacup.

If the release is only a collection of stolen mods then it will be a flop. Most of the SHIII players are here and are informed. They simply will not order.

On the other hand the release may contain something I/we will want.

I plan on waiting to learn what develops and see no need to get all upset and join a crusade at this point.

I have better things to do...like playing SHIII.

[August]

From Dictionary.com:

shy·ster n. Slang

An unethical, unscrupulous practitioner, especially of law.


[Probably alteration of German Scheisser, son of a b**ch, bastard, from scheissen, to defecate, from Middle High German schzen, from Old High German skzzan. See skei- in Indo-European Roots.]shyster·ism n.

Word History: Calling someone a shyster might be considered libellous; knowing its probable origin adds insult to injury. According to Gerald L. Cohen, a student of the word, shyster is derived from the German term scheisser, meaning literally “one who defecates,� from the verb scheissen, “to defecate,� with the English suffix -ster, “one who does,� substituted for the German suffix -er, meaning the same thing. Sheisser, which is chiefly a pejorative term, is the German equivalent of our English terms bastard and son of a b**ch. Sheisser is generally thought to have been borrowed directly into English as the word shicer, which, among other things, is an Australian English term for an unproductive mine or claim, a sense that is also recorded for the word shyster.