Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Hitman]

Gotta love this nonsense. Want your freedom and demand not to be milked by others by force - and you are "disloyal".

Disloyal refers to what the catalan nationalist governments have been doing using all powers they got not just to claim something, but to indoctrinate and agitate people. The level of crazyness this has reached in school and TV is almost 3rd world. Here is a study of the modification of national perception in Catalonia between 1988 and 2015:

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...re_1988_y_2015

Unfortunately you will have to use google translator, as it is in spanish.

Refuse the claim of a slaveholder that he owns you, and you are getting called "disloyal".

Yeah well, according to you 1/2 of separatist catalans can own the other half, so I guess you are not the most qualified to say that. You seem to have like many populists not a clear idea of what democracy means and equal that to a "majority" in decissions.

Anyway, I already noticed that you have refused to learn something new and use reason, and instead have sided sentimentally with the separatists for purely romantic reasons. When you said that Aragon was the result of a union between Castilia and Catalonia I should have known that you haven't understood anything - or refused to.

But if you are still interested in getting a book from someone really impartial and external to all this, get one from Henry Kamen.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Anyway, I already noticed that you have refused to learn something new and use reason,

This is unfortunately how Skybird is these days. He reads/hears/comes up with an idea, likes it and sticks to it no matter what, until the next idea comes by.

[Skybird]

And it goes BOOOOM...

What did Rajoy expect. Pressure. Counterpressure.

Ten days ago even EU-loyal and government-loving German state-TV reflected briefly about the situation ten years ago, when they had negotiated an improved autonomy status for Catalonia, which then was ready to be signed by Madrid and Barcelona alike.

The one guy who then porevented it at the very last minute, was a certain senor named Rajoy.

When it is even German state-TV, which is very left-leaning and politically correct and EU-friendly and sided with Madrid and commented against the Catalonians, reported this point, then I strongly assume there must be at least one huge grain of truth in it. These days there is more Aktuelle Kamera than Tagesschau in German state TV news.

I wonder whether now troops will be marching, or not. In the past years, during the euro-crisis, rajoy diod not leave the impression to me that he is the brightest of lights, just arrogant, and now it all blew up due to this his arrogance. He could have defused it severla times, and refused to do so every single time. Even if they now use police force to force Catalonia under Spain's whip, the damage is done and the prestige of Spain has dramatically suffered. That of Puidgemont probably as well, however.

[Hitman]

And now the Valle de Arán wants in turn to independence itself from Catalonia ...

http://www.abc.es/espana/catalunya/p...5_noticia.html

Let's go on with this, I want to create the independent republic of my own house, crown me king and have my own flag - and of course no longer pay taxes


And you know the best? I will have Skybird's support, so that nobody can own me

[Skybird]

So happy it is, as long as master just feeds it, and pats its warm, soft belly occasionally.

[Hitman]

[Skybird]

Enjoy seeing rigged elections in Catlaonia soon, like we enjoyed rigged elections in East Germany for 40 years. Works fantastically, and makes sure the parliament is in line with the will of the central government. The Chinese swear on it.

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Hitman

...Let's go on with this, I want to create the independent republic of my own house, crown me king and have my own flag - and of course no longer pay taxes
...

You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy

Taking their future in their hands doesn't automatically mean that they want to avoid their responsibilities or 'hiting' the EU (as Juncker said.Very 'strange' statement by Juncker btw,how Catalonia's willness is a cleft for EU?).
Catalonia people want to leave Spain and this is something that Spanish people must think very deeply and seriously.

When your brother wants to leave home becuase he is not huppy, you are not start fighting him or threaten him with money draining,right?

See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.

Though i am wondering ,if they really want to leave why Spanish Central are forcing them not ? money talk maybe ? What do you think is really the reason and Catalonians want to leave ?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by makman94

You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy

Taking their future in their hands doesn't automatically mean that they want to avoid their responsibilities or 'hiting' the EU (as Juncker said.Very 'strange' statement by Juncker btw,how Catalonia's willness is a cleft for EU?).
Catalonia people want to leave Spain and this is something that Spanish people must think very deeply and seriously.

When your brother wants to leave home becuase he is not huppy, you are not start fighting him or threaten him with money draining,right?

See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.

Though i am wondering ,if they really want to leave why Spanish Central are forcing them not ? money talk maybe ? What do you think is really the reason and Catalonians want to leave ?

The more I read about it in past weeks, the more it dawned on me that Catalonia and Castilia never should have come together in the first.

Until the 15th century both were independent kingdoms, then the feudal elites in both countries thought it was a clever idea to unite, by marriage. But both places were very different in culture and sociology from all beginning on, with Castilia more imperial oriented towards a central state that should once cover the whole peninsula, and Catalunya being more "burgeoise" and open-world-minded, wanting to have just a lose federalist union. Castilia wanted the strict centralist regime from beginning on, and Catalonia not. See the locations: Castilia at that time being a land-power on the peninsula, while Catalonia had that access to the Mediterranean and had many trade relations to other places in the world, outclassing that of Castilia - the one partner in this marriage sitting in his cave since long, not knowing much else than that rock he was sitting on, and the other being open-minded and stemming from foreign migrants anyway, used to travel the seas and interact with other places and people with other views. You have here the basis of why the mentality of both sides is so very different.

You ask what the Catalonians want. Its their centuries-old view of that since that unification, that was arranged by some elitist circles at the top, not by the people, they get supressed and exploited by a centralist govenrment that rules over them while they never wanted that, they see themselves as victims of this oppression, and since centuries so. Later historical events, the Spanish war of succession, the civil war, saw them always lining up with the more federalist, more liberal side in conflicts - and they always lost, while the centralists, who had established Castilia as an imperialistic world power with seat in now Madrid, won.

Also, do not forget that the Catalonians as an ethnic group are of different decendence than the Iberian Spaniards. We are not only talking about two different cultures and languages, but two different ethnicities. The catalunyans stem from Iberians mixing with Visagoths that were send by Rome, the Iberian spaniards stayed more for themselves. Hence the different roots of their languages and culture. The Roman heritage in Catalonia influenced most of the peninsula until the 11th or even 12th century.

This going together of Castilia and Catalonya - should never have happened. The centuries since then mostly have seen this dynamic energy stemming from two different tribes rubbing too harshly against each other. The one being a centralist, imperially minded blokehead sitting in the centre and thinking the world has to revolve around him and all others have to serve him, the other being a far more-open-minded world traveller who came to wealth by trade and open interaction and trade with the world beyond its borders (and mental horizon). Two very different mentalities. You can see Madrid and its self-legitimizing claim to own others against their will, as a logical consequence of this attitude. You can see the hope of the Catalonians that Europe will accept them and the EU as well, as a - reality-denying, i fear - continuation of their traditional open-mindedness towards trading partners in the world.

What saddens me, is that the Catalonian hope most likely is in vain, for it is up against an even more merciless enemy than just Madrid, that is the EU. The EU wants to establish itself as the centralist imperial power over the whole continent, a Sovjet Union-style planned continental economy and planned uniform monoculture where only strawman alibis are allowed to mention cultural identities, but uniformity indeed is meant. The signals are clear, from Berlin, Paris, brussels, everywhere. The Catalonians will not be accepted. For the EU, suppression of people and using force and blackmailing to ensure EU rule over all, is fully acceptable, as we see these days. I did not expect anything else from this thing, and thats why I dispise it so unconditionally. We have seen one Sovjet Union, and now they form another one, based on the same powerpoltical mechanisms and principles and alibi lies. Spit on it.

The Catalonians have my sympathy, my respect and my compassion. Historically, their cause is just, their demand is legitimate. But I fear they have no chance - for the world, the EU is neither just, nor legitimate.

I am also certain that it is about money. Catalonia is the biggest net payer into Spain, and Spain does not want to lose its milk cow, even if that cow demands to be let free. Who shall pay for the Spanish ambitions and life style then with its richest subregion gone?

Ironically, mentioning this once again, the Catalonians initially by majority - probably, that is my assumption only - did not even want independence, just a fair renegotiation of economic redistributon schemes inside Spain, for they saw in the past decade that not only gave they more than any other, but that now they had to give so much that other rose while themselves they started to decline, typical socilaist logic to legitimise plundering. State corruption did its thing, too. . This new autonomy statute was negotiated and ready to get signed already ten years ago, and then we would not have gotten this situation today. Ten years ago, Rajoy prevented it at the last second, he is thus strongly co-responsible for the mess there is, and in the present situation his imperial habitus and cock-pride (Gockelstolz) of "We are Spain and we must not let go anyone" made things even worse. He now has brought up Catalonians against Spain that before just wanted better autonomy conditions but wanted to stay in spain. He has fundamentally increased the resistence to Spain.

Considering his dream-walking during the past ten years of the socalled Euro-crisis, I cannot say I see myself becoming a fan of him any time soon.

The clever thing is to have a mediator from outside. But not the EU, because the EU is a heavily biased interest party, no neutral third party. Goal must be to reach a peaceful status of co-existence between two sovereign states, with open borders and trade runnign on grounds of the already established trading contacts. Spain then must not resist Catalonia forming contacts with trading partners form abroad, and European states have to accept that and start doing business. - All this is absolutely unrealistic and will not happen, but it is the only reasonable scenario. What we will instead see is the ongoing suppression of a people, rigged elections, and Spain securing its claim by the power of de factor tyranny. The German Democratic Republic once held the word "democratic" in its name, too. It nevertheless had nothign to do with that. It was tyranny, plain and simple.

I admit I think today's Germany would act the same way, if federal states or big regions would have enough of it all and declare their independence. Its a lousy world. A few days of sun light do not change the principally miserable nature of man-made poliltics.

[Jimbuna]

I am aware the UK government have announced they will not recognise Catalan independence but does anyone know of any countries that have already announced an opposite stance?

[Skybird]

Israel recognizes Kurdistan, does this count as a placeholder?

[ikalugin]

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

I am aware the UK government have announced they will not recognise Catalan independence but does anyone know of any countries that have already announced an opposite stance?

I think that the trend is for non recognised countries to recognise each other.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ConIFA_World_Football_Cup
They even got their own football cup, which Catalonia would win every time I guess.

[Hitman]

For the umteenth time Skybird, Catalonia never was a kingdom in the middle ages on pair with Castilia. It's sad that you have chosen the blue pill and to believe the romantic story you invented to justify your alignement with the catalans, when you had at hand information and sources to be better documented. But I guess it is becoming a sport to voice an opinion without having knowledge about what one is talking about, and now even Makman is joining the club. Oh well, so many experts in Spain that have never been here.

You really think that this is the point of Catalonia people Alberto ?
As i see it,they want to take their future in their hand becuase ,obviously, they don't trust the rajoy

Well I also want to take the future in my hand. The point is, the XXI century catalans are only to a 30% (If not less) the ethnic group that Skybird described and catalonia has been sistematically plundering Spain as a captive market for 300 years. In fact, they are one of the reasons of the decadence of Castilia, as they got privileges -ironically- from the Borbon kings onwards. Yes, Philip the V supressed some institutions of them (Which were never anything remotely close to a democratic parliament BTW) but what independentists usually will ignore or silence is that the Nueva Planta laws also put them ON PAR with Castilia on all counts, which was back thn the richest region. Yes, there was equalization of all the kingdom, but think for a moment: Catalonia was actually a poor region in 1714 and duplicated its population and wealth under the first Borbon king, precisely because they got all of a sudden the equalization with Castilia. And from the XIX century onwards they were heavily privileged, even with Franco (Under whom f.e. the SEAT automobile factory was put there among many others). But I wrote enough about that in the previous posts and I am repeating myself for those new to the debate, so just go some pages back and get the information.

See my point Alberto ? Maybe Catalonia people have valid reasons for not feeling deep inside as Spanish people and this ,for me, is the point that must be seriously thought from both sides and both must try bridging.

It is not as simple as that. The feeling of a part of the catalan population against the rest of Spain (Roughly 50%) has been promoted by the nationalist governments since 1978 in all possible ways, via education and TV propaganda. It is a fully artificial situation that never existed in 1978, when the current Constitution was aproved by 90% of catalans (More than in any other region of Spain), and that has been created with lies and hate.

But I guess it is inevitable that the people outside who have no clue of our history and what is going on here come to give us lessons of democracy, specially people like Skybird who has already proven his ignorance not just about Spain but about what a XXI century democracy really is (Hint: It is not just what a majority decides).

Manos, I never came here to give my opinion about the effects of the crisis and EU policies in your country, because I have not enough information about that, and probably only you guys who live there and through it do really now. Don't be now so lighthearted as to think that things in Spain are as easy as they seem outside or people like Skybird simplify them in a romantic view.

[mapuc]

I have so to say retired and are now following the news on Danish and Swedish news program and what people write in this thread.

´cause I don't know what's the correct truth in this.

I know that a percentage of the Catalonian people want independent from Spain, I do know the government in Madrid has activated a law/article called 155. The Spanish government has also fired the entire Catalonian government including puigdemont, who has refused to step down.


That what I know about this political crisis in Spain.

Markus

[makman94]

Originally Posted by Hitman

For the umteenth time Skybird, Catalonia never was a kingdom in the middle ages on pair with Castilia. It's sad that you have chosen the blue pill and to believe the romantic story you invented to justify your alignement with the catalans, when you had at hand information and sources to be better documented. But I guess it is becoming a sport to voice an opinion without having knowledge about what one is talking about, and now even Makman is joining the club. Oh well, so many experts in Spain that have never been here.



Well I also want to take the future in my hand. The point is, the XXI century catalans are only to a 30% (If not less) the ethnic group that Skybird described and catalonia has been sistematically plundering Spain as a captive market for 300 years. In fact, they are one of the reasons of the decadence of Castilia, as they got privileges -ironically- from the Borbon kings onwards. Yes, Philip the V supressed some institutions of them (Which were never anything remotely close to a democratic parliament BTW) but what independentists usually will ignore or silence is that the Nueva Planta laws also put them ON PAR with Castilia on all counts, which was back thn the richest region. Yes, there was equalization of all the kingdom, but think for a moment: Catalonia was actually a poor region in 1714 and duplicated its population and wealth under the first Borbon king, precisely because they got all of a sudden the equalization with Castilia. And from the XIX century onwards they were heavily privileged, even with Franco (Under whom f.e. the SEAT automobile factory was put there among many others). But I wrote enough about that in the previous posts and I am repeating myself for those new to the debate, so just go some pages back and get the information.



It is not as simple as that. The feeling of a part of the catalan population against the rest of Spain (Roughly 50%) has been promoted by the nationalist governments since 1978 in all possible ways, via education and TV propaganda. It is a fully artificial situation that never existed in 1978, when the current Constitution was aproved by 90% of catalans (More than in any other region of Spain), and that has been created with lies and hate.

But I guess it is inevitable that the people outside who have no clue of our history and what is going on here come to give us lessons of democracy, specially people like Skybird who has already proven his ignorance not just about Spain but about what a XXI century democracy really is (Hint: It is not just what a majority decides).

I read about it here and there in internet and i just expressed you the sense i ,personally,had about this by the few i have read. I didn't said that things are as i said nor i appeared myself as an 'expert'.I am sure that things are much complicated and noone can get a safe picture of situation by reading 2-3 pages in internet.
i read the last page on this thread and i saw your response that i quoted,seemed to me very simplified,and,exactly becuase i knew that you are Spanish, i thought to ask personally you in order to get a valid response from the 'inside'. No intention to piss you off and i am really surprised that you saw it that way.Maybe it was better to have used pms but it is late now to fix it so ,please, accept my apollogies.
i haven't read anything else and if it happened my message to be online with Skybird's post that is not my fault and i didn't joined any 'group' as you say. I have nothing against you so stop thinking dark conspiracy senarios against you.It is really sad that you think that way for me,you should have knew what kind of person i am all these years.

Originally Posted by Hitman

Manos, I never came here to give my opinion about the effects of the crisis and EU policies in your country, because I have not enough information about that, and probably only you guys who live there and through it do really now. Don't be now so lighthearted as to think that things in Spain are as easy as they seem outside or people like Skybird simplify them in a romantic view.

you are 100% right about it.It was exactly the reason that i prefered never to post there,it was unbelievable the lies,the 'jokes' and the insults i read there about my country.
Thank you for reminding me why it is impossible to talk publickly for such things at forums