Japanese Tsunami

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by moose1am

Now that's scary. I didn't think about that. Good god man. Those are measurements in RAD not mill-rads or the other unit which is smaller than a mill rad. siemens or something

700 rad is terrible high radiation and can be very dangerous as that's a very high DOSE of radiation in a short period of time.

Let's hope they cool the reactor vessel down before it's melts down or explodes.

It's scary but it's also a complete load of bull as we have already proven Not unless every single NPP in Japan explodes will that amount of radiation go into the atmosphere. Apparently the Japanese version of 4chan (2chan) made that, so that gives some idea of its authenticity.

IIRC they use Boron in control rods, and graphite? I can't remember, it's been a while since I went up to the visitor centre at the local NPP which alas, post 9/11, was closed (the visitor centre not the NPP).
It does still seem like a pretty dodgy situation down there at the nuclear plants, but I think the chances of seeing a Chernobyl style incident are pretty low...however a Three Mile Island is perhaps possible.
The Plutonium fueled reactor that's in trouble is a bit of a concern though.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I have highlighted the part I have issue with, and having read a lot about the design and design philosophy I disagree with it. He has provided no references to back his statement up. Does anyone here have anything that backs that up, ie specific statement.

Nope, I think you are right. This is a case of occidental bias. While the RBMK design did have a rather high void coefficient, there is nothing intrinsically wrong with the design of the reactor.

The design of the support and safety systems could be questioned as well as the actions of the humans (which were the real problem).

But the design was good, albeit an old design.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by joegrundman

move on guys. do you want a thread about a tragedy to devolve into a standard internet bitching thread?

No, but **** like that makes my bood boil - sorry.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I was not aware that any reactor would use Cesium as a control rod material.

Cesium is a gamma emitter, not especially known for its neutron absorbing capabilities, is highly reactive (violently) to water and with oxygen (produces Hydrogen), and most importantly, melts at about 85 degrees F (at normal pressure). All of these would make it not a good material for a control rod.

Not to question Bill Nye, but I am. He is very entertaining but he still only has a BS in science. His honorary doctorate does not count.

137 Cesium is a common byproduct of the fission process.

The fact that CNN would use Bill Nye as a SME raises many concerns.

This. While Bill Nye makes some good children's shows, I wouldn't exactly rely on him. He's a science educator, not a scientist.

Now that's scary. I didn't think about that. Good god man. Those are measurements in RAD not mill-rads or the other unit which is smaller than a mill rad. siemens or something

700 rad is terrible high radiation and can be very dangerous as that's a very high DOSE of radiation in a short period of time.

Let's hope they cool the reactor vessel down before it's melts down or explodes.

Yeah, like Obernon said, it's a load of bull. 700 RAD is damn near a 100% lethal dose. Half of North America is not going to die as a result of this.

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by Gargamel

This is why I hate the US some days.... the ignorance of some people....

http://cdn-www.i-am-bored.com/media/...arborjapan.jpg

Some people, not all of us.

Thankfully, most Americans have more self-respect than those asswipes do.

[Respenus]

/rant on/

I understand the inherent risks involved with nuclear energy, I understand the risks that are currently present in Japan, but what is going on right now in Germany for example, is downright unacceptable. Suddenly, due to the earthquakes in Japan, we must all rush and check our own power-plants back home, because they might spontaneously turn into molten nuclear waste. Put that together with the tree hugging hippies (a la, nature is our master crap) and nuclear energy, SAFELY used by many countries around the world with no accidents what so ever, has suddenly become the biggest danger to European polities. It's no the economy, not the social changes, not the inherent problems with dwindling oil supplies, no, suddenly they have, against what they themselves are claiming, political capital to draw upon. Reminds of the Austrians, every time some sneezes around Krško (our nuclear power plant), on the other side on the country, they come knocking on our doors, saying that we must shut it down.

/Rant off/

Now that I've cooled off a bit, my best wishes go to the people of Japan and to their nuclear agency, hoping for the best that nothing serious happens. With the current state of mind in Europe and in the USA, it might just be the end of the nuclear future. I'm afraid what they'll say once fusion comes along. Something along the lines of the LHC destroying the world.

[XabbaRus]

I think we should measure the radiation with bananas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose

[Biggles]

That must be one helluva quake to mess up Japan this much, considering how well prepared they are for these sorts of things in comparison to other countries in Asia.

I don't think we'll see the horrendous loss of life that we had in 2004 (Indonesia) or 2010 (Haiti) but it is regardless a terrible disaster, and I hope that the people affected get the help they need.

[Oberon]

I'm trying to remember the last 9.0 earthquake and 10m high tsunami in Germany...can anyone help me with that?

One thing I heard earlier this morning, might have been on the World Service or on NHK, but the earthquake apparently might have caused the whole north-eastern coastal area of Japan to drop by about 70cm which made the tsunami defences even less able to stop the tsunami when it roared in. Not sure how much stock to put in that, but the fact that this has been bumped up to .1 below the Indonesian quake which caused the Boxing Day tsunami and rearranged the geography of the seabed in its epicentre, I'd be inclined to believe it.

[Catfish]

Four more nuclear plants at stake, one of it short to explosion. The fallout of the first is already poisoning areas further than a hundred kilometers around the explosion (where the evacuations took place). You cannot evacuate densely populated areas - Japan is one big populated area, everywhere.
Now in that second plant they use plutonium. You know the stuff that will kill you with the millionth part of a gram, and a theoretical spoonful enough to kill Great Britain if properly dispersed by wind (cold war study). Most will go down over the pacific if the current winds do not change.

The Tsunami is bad enough, but several (!) cores melting ?! How deep will a runaway reactor core get, through the surface ? China syndrome ?
I guess the heat and energy melting the ground below it will bleed away after some meters, if not the radiation level ?

Greetings,
Catfish

[Gargamel]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

I know this is going OT a little bit but it seems this kind of ignorance gets me.

Written by the environmental correspondent for the BBC
"And at Chernobyl - a reactor design regarded in the West as inherently unsafe, and which would not have been sanctioned in any non-Soviet bloc nation - the environmental impacts occurred through explosive release of material into the air, not from a melting reactor core."

I have highlighted the part I have issue with, and having read a lot about the design and design philosophy I disagree with it. He has provided no references to back his statement up. Does anyone here have anything that backs that up, ie specific statement.

I don't have any specific citations I can quote, but from all the reading I've done over the years, That was the general consensus I believe. While the design may have been faulty, it was functional. It was operator error that destroyed it. But the inherit flaws in the design of the reactor and it's systems allowed the event to happen, not really the reactor itself.

A good friend of mine was living there when that happened, and know she has tumors on her knuckles that have to be removed every few years (non-cancerous). That, and general curiosity, led me to do some research.

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Catfish

Four more nuclear plants at stake, one of it short to explosion. The fallout of the first is already poisoning areas further than a hundred kilometers around the explosion (where the evacuations took place). You cannot evacuate densely populated areas - Japan is one big populated area, everywhere.
Now in that second plant they use plutonium. You know the stuff that will kill you with the millionth part of a gram, and a theoretical spoonful enough to kill Great Britain if properly dispersed by wind (cold war study). Most will go down over the pacific if the current winds do not change.

The Tsunami is bad enough, but several (!) cores melting ?! How deep will a runaway reactor core get, through the surface ? China syndrome ?
I guess the heat and energy melting the ground below it will bleed away after some meters, if not the radiation level ?

Greetings,
Catfish

China Syndrome is still theoretical, no-one has ever witnessed one. I hope that no-one ever does. Worse case scenario it goes down until it hits magma and then gets sucked into the earths core. You can kiss goodbye to farmland in the surrounding area though, for some distance, and no more water either because it'll get into the water table.
I don't think it'll get that far though, well, I hope not, but there's so much conflicting news and reports and theories coming out of Fukushima and the other NPPs at the moment that it's hard to know what to think.
The chaps around here who have more knowledge of NPPs than me...what are the chances of a steam explosion?

[ASWnut101]

The chaps around here who have more knowledge of NPPs than me...what are the chances of a steam explosion?

For Fukushima #1, as long as the safety relief valves continue functioning and they can keep flushing seawater through the core, an explosion can be averted. If they lose the core, though, I don't know if the pressure vessel can cope with the weakening effects of the heat.

As for Fukushima #3, I don't really know. I'm don't know too much about PWRs as opposed to BWRs, and I haven't heard much on what cooling systems still work. As with #1 however, the relief valves should hopefully release some of that pressure before the vessel ruptures.

[Oberon]

Oh, 3 is a PWR? I thought it was a BWR like the others. It's a similar design setup IIRC so I imagine there would be safety valves like number one. Our local NPP is a PWR, well, B is...A was a Magnox but has been decommed now.

[Oberon]

Before and after sat photos:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...r-tsunami.html