Is this it?

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by ghost_666_rider

As a consumer, I'm in agreement with others here, spending hard earned money for incomplete software just plain sux!

I don't know how it's be in other countries, but here in Germany I have as a customer the legal rights that an incorrect product is going to be fixed. This right applies here also to software/games, no question if I paid 5Euro or 49Euro for it. I must grant the manufacturer of a broken product twice tries to improve/correct the product.
If thereafter the product is still incorrectly I can reclaim the full purchase price from manufacturer.

[BarjackU977]

I am not sure one has said that business is al evil. But I may have missed the post saying that, as I didn't read all the lines in all the posts. However, I'm sure that several pointed drawbacks of current trends in businesses, which are simply due to the system we live in: capitalism. But several of us also said that it does not only have drawbacks, and it's even is the best system we currently have.

Same for the remark about governments: who said that government is the source of all good stuff?

I think it makes very good sense to say that governments (i.e. those who vote laws, actually) to give reasonable protections to consumers through laws. They're the ones paid to do that. Not everyone on earth is smart enough to protect himself by his only own means (some even need to be protected against themseves!). And in some cases, that would not be even possible, because the balance of powers is... not balanced at all. What can you do, alone, against a big company with huge money means?

And like you said (which is also like Uber Gruber and I said), governments are not only made of idealistic saints without any interests, so it is also necessary to control them.

I agree with Uber Gruber about idenpendant comissions: that's the best we can get. I'm just worried about the funding of those comissions: who shall decide on their funding, on how much money must be put? The government?? The comissions themselves?

And regarding media, I agree it's a good way of control too, but almost all media are somewhat politically engaged. If you compare news from well know media around the world, the way they present the same topic can be very different, and that influence the local public opinion. It's why it can be very easy to drive a country opinion in one direction. In my country, I observed very concrete examples. Ideally, we should compare several sources, and make our own mind. But we don't have enough time, as we already have so many things to do in everyday life. Ideally, we'd have to do so many more things that we can't have the time to do. This is also a reason why we need independant groups to represent and protect ourselves, as citizens, as consumers, as workers....

[Squirtikiss]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

Let us suppose you work for 3-4 month, non stop, including all Saturdays and Sundays. Every month has 170 working hours and yet they make squeeze another 90 (ninety) extra hours every month. You barely get to see you girlfriend\wife, let alone your parents. And what if you were the lucky guy that only worked 9h/day and others, like the Lead Designer, had to work until midnight (in many days) to get those subs working.

Let us suppose your colleagues are incredibly good professionals but the team is not left in peace to work its magic and the results are called SH4 v1.0 . If SH4 was a console game, there wouldn't have been any patch, including 1.1 . I dare you play SH4 out of the box.

After that, the team is scattered, working on other various projects and very few are left to work and create patch 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Imagine the quality of the work done inside SH4 if only a couple of the team members could get it to the 1.3 state in such a short time. It means the project was almost there, it just wasn't allowed to be completed.

In the end, let us suppose that you begin to see the bosses coming to work in brand new, incredibly expensive cars, even though no dev team member received any bonus money.

After 4 months of continuous work, you are so tired you're getting physically ill.

So I'm wondering, what do you actually mean by "MY company"? I'm just one of the 3000 working-ants there. I work to earn a living, I'm not their bought out slave, the way you seem to think.

I come here, among friends, to talk about the game we all love and play in our spare time (including mine). And maybe improving the game, using the tools each one of us has. So the game gets in a state in which I can read the posts here and be proud about Silent Hunter 4. Imagine how the dev team felt when they were presented with the dvd containing SH4 v1.0 and they read the posts here .

Thankfuly, Subsim is not "Ubi forums". If you want an official opinion about SH4, you go there and talk to the support team guys (that we didn't meet and don't even know in what country they're located in).

I'm not trying to hurt anybody, all I'm talking about is being allowed to be proud about my work. Doesn't everybody?

Edit:

Did you know that SH4 team never got the time to actually play the game (like stop working and play it for a month (or a week, or a day)) ? Only the testers did play it, but they only report bugs they understand, because they don't play Silent Hunter the way you do. They didn't notice the stadimeter was buged when using imperial units (you guys were the only ones that reported it).



So, What the **** is wrong with people?

Now here is someone who knows what he is talking about. I have received more useful information from his few posts in this thread than I have received from all the thousands of posts I have read on all the forums I have read.
I bow down to you for having the integrity to tell the truth instead of remaining silent or even lying to protect the parasitic suits who caused SHIV to be released unfinished.
What is wrong with him badmouthing his employer? Because of his employer, I am not buying SHIV. My download speed is 3kb/sec. I cannot have my telephone offline for the DAYS it would take to download the current patch. If his employers do not want to be bad-mouthed, then they should change the way they do business.
Be glad, be VERY glad that there are developers out there who take pride in their work. These are the only ones who will ever produce the games that rate 100. If he had a work ethic similar to the Ubi suits, how much worse would SHIV version 1 have been?
Although I am not buying the game, still I thank you for doing the absolute best you could do in the allotted time.

[Squirtikiss]

Originally Posted by Reaves

I love being called a fanboy by a ranting whiner who hasn't even played the game yet.

I have my complaints with the game but since 1.3 they are minor IMO. Can we just get a general rule that anybody who hasn't actually played the game should stop complaining until they know what it's actually like?

edit- BTW i'm not happy with the way games are released today but it is ALL games, not just SH. Heck even console games are being patched nowadays. (XBOX LIVE)

A person does not have to have the game to know what it is like. All one has to do is read what has been posted by game owners. Even you say " I have my complaints about the game but since 1.3 they are minorIMO." This tells me that after 3 patches the game still has problems. I also know that patch 1.3 is an incredible 200+ megs. Just the size of the patch tells me the game is studded with defects. There is also a movement to demand patch 1.4. This tells me a lot also.
Need the game to know what it is actually like? No.
Do you know why console games are being patched now? It is because they can be. If they could not be, the games would be released when they were finished.....as they were until recently.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Squirtikiss

A person does not have to have the game to know what it is like.

I stopped reading after that sentance.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Squirtikiss

A person does not have to have the game to know what it is like. All one has to do is read what has been posted by game owners. Even you say " I have my complaints about the game but since 1.3 they are minorIMO." This tells me that after 3 patches the game still has problems. I also know that patch 1.3 is an incredible 200+ megs. Just the size of the patch tells me the game is studded with defects. There is also a movement to demand patch 1.4. This tells me a lot also.
Need the game to know what it is actually like? No.
Do you know why console games are being patched now? It is because they can be. If they could not be, the games would be released when they were finished.....as they were until recently.

I tend to agree. This is why there are customer testimonials. But, the proof is in the pudding when you get a chance to play the game.

[Deputy]

I'm still having a blast playing SH3. And know what the best thing about it is??? I paid $10 for it BRAND NEW IN THE BOX. For $10, even if the game is a complete dud, at least you don't feel hosed down buying it. I pay more for a pizza, so $10 isn't that big a loss. I just checked Amazon.com and the lowest price I can get SH4 for is $32.51. And that is for a USED version. I'm not gonna whine about SH4 since I don't own it. But I WON'T own it until the price drops down and the modders have had a chance to fix the problems that Ubi has given up on. That may be a year or more, but I have SH3 to enjoy during that time. My goes to the modders who will finally fix SH4.

Dep

[Squirtikiss]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I tend to agree. This is why there are customer testimonials. But, the proof is in the pudding when you get a chance to play the game.

No doubt playing the game is the best way to know what it is like. The best way not to waste your money is to pay heed to customer testimonials. I have learned this by buying several games without reading any testimonials. I always find that the overall tone of testimonials is pretty close to what I think of the game.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Deputy

I'm still having a blast playing SH3. And know what the best thing about it is??? I paid $10 for it BRAND NEW IN THE BOX. For $10, even if the game is a complete dud, at least you don't feel hosed down buying it. I pay more for a pizza, so $10 isn't that big a loss. I just checked Amazon.com and the lowest price I can get SH4 for is $32.51. And that is for a USED version. I'm not gonna whine about SH4 since I don't own it. But I WON'T own it until the price drops down and the modders have had a chance to fix the problems that Ubi has given up on. That may be a year or more, but I have SH3 to enjoy during that time. My goes to the modders who will finally fix SH4.

Dep

You're missing a lot of fun. It was fun out of the box. It is more fun now at v1.3. I can't say it's better than SH3, They are very different situations that deserve to stand on their own merits. Suffice it to say that they are absolutely the two BEST sub sims on the planet! You have my sympathy however. Anyone can overpay for something. It is much more fun and challenging to buy it cheap. I wouldn't give up but keep trying the eBay method. I bought mine for $15.00 a month ago. I paid full price for SH3 and am still satisfied!

I paid near on 50 Euro for SHIV......did I get value for money ? Well, not when I bought it as the produc that cam out of the box was worth no more than 10 to 12 euro at most. However, now, 5 months later and with patch 1.3 do I now have value for money ? Yes, I think so..not as much value as SH3 but value for money all he same. Has the SHIV purchasing experience been good ? NO, its been a bloody disaster and I can actually say its been the worst game buying experience of my life.....and I used to own an 8K Commodore Pet when I was 14 so i've been through the mill I can tell you.

What have I learnt ? Patience. This one experience has soured the future because I have learnt that I should wait till a game is patched to resonable playability levels. Which is why I still dont own Allied Assault.

Will anyone listen ? I doubt it. But if people like me start holding off from buying games then, well, the inital marketing of a game will have less return from its marketing investment. That means the purse string holders will dispense less on merketing, which means less hype and less control over income for the publishers.

None of this is good news for a publisher.....

[maerean_m]

Originally Posted by Squirtikiss

What is wrong with him badmouthing his employer? Because of his employer, I am not buying SHIV. My download speed is 3kb/sec. I cannot have my telephone offline for the DAYS it would take to download the current patch. If his employers do not want to be bad-mouthed, then they should change the way they do business.

The 1.3 patch is so big because it includes the 1.2 patch which includes the 1.1 patch. This way, anyone who buys SH4 (hopefully) needs to download only one patch to be up to date.

[Meco]

SH4 + 1.3 patch + Trigger Maru 1.3a + CBS radio mod = All SH4 expectations fufilled.

Untill 1.3 came out, SH4 was on hold for me. Now it runs like I envisoned.

I guess having a 7 Mbps cable line helps with the speedy downloading.

So all I can say in response to the original poster is:

Special thanks and Cudos to:

- UBI for a great sim and ongoing support.
- Ducimus for your visionary TM 1.3a Mod pack.
- Captain Cox for your CBS Radio News Mod.

I must admit, I am a big "fan" of the Sub Sim genre, and "boy" that must stick in some peoples craw. :rotfl:

To those that don't like SH4 and grumble about it. heres a hint. When I was not playing SH4 while waiting for patch 1.3... I was playing something else... It did not carry the same Rant value as some of the more colorful posts made out of protest. But it passed the time until the devs continued to " support " the game.

There is no comparison to Falcon 4 and Microprose here. Because I have that sim too. and the current owners of that game still have not been able to fix the complete game freezes I got way back in the MP days. There is nothing worse than being in a dogfight with a mig for several minutes to get into gun position only to have the screen freeze up when I finaly pull that trigger.. A decade gone by, 3 progressive empowered computers, 2 companies, and still the same hard crash requiring a power off reboot.

I have never gone back. Only so many "years" of that I can take. But I have NEVER had SH4 crash on me. not even upon release without a patch... And it has not even been a year since it's release.

Apples and Oranges my friends.. everything else is moot.


http://www.f4hq.com/default.php?page=faq&question=46

"Falcon 4.0 Allied Force is relatively stable. Perhaps something went wrong during the installation or patching procces. We sugest to reinstall Falcon 4.0 Allied force."

About 10 years gone by since release and F4 is " relatively stable? ", "reinstall?" I have reinstalled that thing over 100 times, 30 diffrent ways on 3 different computers... and it still crashes...

What next? " Check your drivers " ? LOL

:hmm:

[ST.Rage]

Originally Posted by maerean_m

Let us suppose you work for 3-4 month, non stop, including all Saturdays and Sundays. Every month has 170 working hours and yet they make squeeze another 90 (ninety) extra hours every month. You barely get to see you girlfriend\wife, let alone your parents. And what if you were the lucky guy that only worked 9h/day and others, like the Lead Designer, had to work until midnight (in many days) to get those subs working.

Let us suppose your colleagues are incredibly good professionals but the team is not left in peace to work its magic and the results are called SH4 v1.0 . If SH4 was a console game, there wouldn't have been any patch, including 1.1 . I dare you play SH4 out of the box.

After that, the team is scattered, working on other various projects and very few are left to work and create patch 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3. Imagine the quality of the work done inside SH4 if only a couple of the team members could get it to the 1.3 state in such a short time. It means the project was almost there, it just wasn't allowed to be completed.

In the end, let us suppose that you begin to see the bosses coming to work in brand new, incredibly expensive cars, even though no dev team member received any bonus money.

After 4 months of continuous work, you are so tired you're getting physically ill.

So I'm wondering, what do you actually mean by "MY company"? I'm just one of the 3000 working-ants there. I work to earn a living, I'm not their bought out slave, the way you seem to think.

I come here, among friends, to talk about the game we all love and play in our spare time (including mine). And maybe improving the game, using the tools each one of us has. So the game gets in a state in which I can read the posts here and be proud about Silent Hunter 4. Imagine how the dev team felt when they were presented with the dvd containing SH4 v1.0 and they read the posts here .

Thankfuly, Subsim is not "Ubi forums". If you want an official opinion about SH4, you go there and talk to the support team guys (that we didn't meet and don't even know in what country they're located in).

I'm not trying to hurt anybody, all I'm talking about is being allowed to be proud about my work. Doesn't everybody?

Edit:

Did you know that SH4 team never got the time to actually play the game (like stop working and play it for a month (or a week, or a day)) ? Only the testers did play it, but they only report bugs they understand, because they don't play Silent Hunter the way you do. They didn't notice the stadimeter was buged when using imperial units (you guys were the only ones that reported it).



So, What the **** is wrong with people?

Thankyou for all your hardwork Maerean! It is common knowledge to diehard pc gamers the kind of hell you devs go through. Especially those unfortunate enough to work for EA or Ubi. Remember the pissed off significant other that blew the whistle on EA's treatment of the Battle for Middle Earth dev crew a few years back? Gamewatch.org has a forum dedicated to worker treatment a rather interesting read. http://www.gamewatch.org/phpBB2/view...620685f37c449b

SH4 is better than ever thanks to you and your coworkers keep up the good work!