Expelled student armed with assault rifle slaughters 17 at Florida high school

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel B.

...keep in mind that a civilian AR-15 is a single shot .22 caliber rifle. Of course, the 5.56 round is much more powerful than a .22 LR. But, the more traditional hunting rounds, such as .30-06, .308, .338, .300, .270 & even .25-06 are at least as powerful as 5.56. Most variants are over twice as powerful. And there are plenty of other semi-auto hunting rifles on the market besides the AR platform.

Also, these rounds are usually all full metal jacket. On the other hand, hollow-point rounds, the type typically used in handguns, transfer much more energy to the target. This is by design ... the hollow-point rounds expand upon impact creating a much larger cavity whereas a FMJ will typically pass right through a target, carrying some leftover energy with it. Rounds such as the 5.56 FMJ were specifically chosen for military use because they are less likely to do horrific damage to an enemy combatant.

IOW, an AR-15 is far from the most deadly gun a shooter could use. Sure, they might be able to get a lot of shots off. But, the chances of those shots being fatal are less than with many other rounds. Terms such as "military-grade" and "assault rifle" are [intentionally] misleading. We could ban all "assault rifles" and possibly do more harm than good.

Okay, I kept these details in mind. Fifteen minutes later I still cannot see the shot victims raising from the dead. Seems it doesn't work.

BTW, since I was so about culture and fetish for firearms and violence, the AR-15 by its looks is a very militaristic looking rifle, it definitely mimics the military's optical styling, does not compare to the looks of a classic hunting rifle. Elder local Ibex hunters in the Alps I know to take often just one or two rounds with them, for the one or two animals they plan to shoot and harvest for sure - I wonder what kind of meat hunting is done with magaziones of 10, 20 rounds? Sounds as if somebody plans to spray bullets all across the place. In the Alps, such amateurs injure animals often, shot them in a place where they cannot be harvetsed easily, and so forget about them and let them come to a long, miserable death. What hunter needs a truckload of ammunitions? A bad hunter - or Superman as his buddy carrying all the dead animals for him.

From the moment on when several years back I saw the first photography of such a AR-15 rifle I am convinced that the looks is a primary argument for its popularity, even if its owners will give plenty of reasons that are different. People are not rational. People are rationalising.

And finally, the civilian or sport-optimized variants with greater accuracy of the AR-15 come with callibres of .223 - and 5.56x45 and 9mm. In other words: the same callibres like the military versions. Wikipedia says there even is a civil sporter carbine 7.62x39

.22 and .223/.222 are different callibres.

Two more minutes, and they still lie still in their graves. Somehow I do this wrong, I fear. Maybe because this is all meaningless academic exercise.

[Catfish]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Ban boys!

But i fear this is what most people will think, if they did not see the whole interview

By me:

edit: i just realized how wrong this interview is titled (by Fox News)..
"America's men in decline"
"Left says Toxic masculinity is the reason for school shooting"
while Peterson says NOTHING of it! On the contrary!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Onkel Neal

Ban boys!

No, ban masculine/manly boys!

The others can be feminised. Gender is free choice, isn't it...

[Sean C]

Originally Posted by Skybird

the civilian or sport-optimized variants with greater accuracy of the AR-15 come with callibres of .223 - and 5.56x45 and 9mm. In other words: the same callibres like the military versions. Wikipedia says there even is a civil sporter carbine 7.62x39

.22 and .223/.222 are different callibres.

Yeah ... I mentioned that. Perhaps you misunderstood what I wrote. Besides, the difference between the 5.56 and .22 rounds has less to do with caliber (0.02 mm difference) and more to do with cartridge size and bullet weight.

Originally Posted by Skybird

...the AR-15 by its looks is a very militaristic looking rifle, it definitely mimics the military's optical styling, does not compare to the looks of a classic hunting rifle. [...] I wonder what kind of meat hunting is done with magaziones of 10, 20 rounds? Sounds as if somebody plans to spray bullets all across the place. [...] What hunter needs a truckload of ammunitions?

None of this is even relevant. The Second Amendment has nothing to do with hunting. The only reason I even mentioned the subject is because you brought it up. The founders of this country intended for the people to be able to protect their own freedom from whatever threat, external or internal. It wouldn't make much sense for a militia to use bolt action rifles and to only carry two bullets with them. The idea is to give citizens access to weapons which could be used to defeat our own government, should it become uncontrollable and aggressive. Not that we'd ever want to get to that point. The fact that it's possible is supposed to be a deterrent. Our government is supposed to be subservient to us, not the other way around. I'm sure the founders wanted to prevent future generations from having to do what they did.

Besides that, the problem in this country has little to nothing to do with guns. You even began to realize that, yourself:

Originally Posted by Skybird

To some degree I would go with those saying the weapon itself is not so much the problem, but the mind commanding it. [...] in Switzerland for exmaple this rate is also above the average in Western states, due to their militia system many households have assault rifles at home. But why is the suicide rate in which these get used still I think six times lower than in the US?

Originally Posted by Skybird

Maybe because this is all meaningless academic exercise.

I think it is for the most part. The Second Amendment isn't going away anytime soon ... and it shouldn't. But as long as that's the only thing that people can focus on, I doubt the real problem will be addressed.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Okay, I kept these details in mind. Fifteen minutes later I still cannot see the shot victims raising from the dead. Seems it doesn't work.

Really? Trolling comments like this are why I can't even take you seriously.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Nathaniel B.

The Second Amendment isn't going away anytime soon ... and it shouldn't. But as long as that's the only thing that people can focus on, I doubt the real problem will be addressed.

So true. This entire exercise has dwelt on guns and the NRA while ignoring all the other factors. Police and FBI response, school safety, and the mental and the physiological state of the killer.

On the evening of 14 July 2016 Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed 86 people and injured another 458 others in Nice France. He did it with a 19 tonne Renault Midlum cargo truck. Mass murderers do not require guns to kill people.

[Skybird]

As I indicated by linking to the Spiegel-aticle, the seocnd amendment is not only, in consequences, about staying armed against being opressed from above, but also about opressing those that are below you. Mind you, some of the founders were slkave-holders themselves. And as I have voiced in other discussions over the years, due to quotes from letters he wrote to friends in his time I am not at all convinced of that Lincoln was about freeing the slaves when he went to war with the South. It was about making the south paying for the overburdening debts of the North who had ruined his finances by pushing industrialization to too high speed. The slaves were a formidable propaganda thing to make the North rally around his course.

I did not bring the 2nd amendment up, btw, not in this thread.

The reality people live in, is subjective, and not rational but rationalised reality. Perception of it gets bend, tuned, chnaged and altered untoil any cognitive dissoance between what one want sot see and what one does see in reality, has disappared enough to give back peace of mind and reassured heart. This is what is demonstrated in extremis whenever talk comes to weapons and their abuse in shooting events in the US. It ha s been like this before in many ages, places, and cultures, especially with elites of societies and subgroups of societies dealing with fighting and war, military and serving as warrior themselves. From privileges come conservatism to defend them, even if the writing was on the wall that times had chnaged, the time sof the cavalry was over, and black powder beats polished plate armour. Neal said he found the Spiegel article so leftist or anti-American that he refused to read it. But I say: read it again and try to understand what the authors really aim at. It is not just cheap anti-Americanism, that is nonsense. Quiote some of what it says, imo is historically if not true then at least a potentially very important correlation that cannot be just ignored for the only reason of the conclusions being not welcomed.

Many discussions after shotting incidents end up in discussing tehcnical details that in the end are not really any relevant. Laws. Callibres. Its all just a welcomed opprutnity for some to distract attention and diverting away formt he fact that once again such an event has taken place.

I tell everybody, more psychological tests for rifle customers will not do anything. More officers will not do anything. More trianign lessons will not do anything. The problem is the cultural climate in which the symptom that shooting events are time and again shows up, indicating that there is a profound, inherent problem in this special one society itself. Its self-definition and self-understanding, as well as the inner contradictions in its idealised construction. And that was where Moore was trying to look at in Bowling for Columbine. And nthat was what many did not forgive him, calling him a Nestbeschmutzer (somebody fouling his own nest). I do not talk about his other movies, or the man himself, just this one film: and I think he had it spot on.

Its a far greater context, and I see no real solution to the issue as long as the masses do not raise and chase lobbyists and politicians trying to prevent any bettering out of offices, out of cities, and into the ocean. Personnel comes and goes. The system stays and makes saure that nothing really changes.

And that is where the axe must aim at. (In all the Western world, btw).

^ Will not happen. And so it will be continuing erosion of the fundaments, and collapse. To delay the final end, force and oppression will be used. And that is what we will get, its already happening, and shows itself in more and more shameless openness. That is why I am so completely pessimistic for the medium- to longterm future. Europe most likely will fall before America, but America will follow with a delay of 50-100 years or so (if so long), and most of the other cultural spheres as well. The order in which they fall, is not really important.

I stray off, sorry. Bu you see, when I said earlier I think these shooting incident issues cannot be causally targetted and ruled out by laws and simple measures, but are embedded in a much wider, deeper-rooting cultural context, I am meaning that very serious. An additonal officer here, a new law there, more training lessons for rifle owners - it will make no difference.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by u crank

So true. This entire exercise has dwelt on guns and the NRA while ignoring all the other factors. Police and FBI response, school safety, and the mental and the physiological state of the killer.

Details of the single event, that mean nothing for the general picture. There are handguns and rifles in other countries, and there are mentally instabile people in other countries. Why is the Us reocrd holder in such shooting incidents nevertheless, why is it happening there so frequently? This you cannot answer by just looking at the cosmetical details on the surface of the individual event. And thats why I say: culture. Mentality. General cultural climate. Or as Moore said: a dominant collective feeling of fear, paranoia. A fixiation on violence. Heck, compared to other Western polices, even the US police looks, is equipped and often behaves like a damn military. Violence is an omnipresent fetish.

On the evening of 14 July 2016 Mohamed Lahouaiej-Bouhlel killed 86 people and injured another 458 others in Nice France. He did it with a 19 tonne Renault Midlum cargo truck. Mass murderers do not require guns to kill people.

Does not compare. A religiously motivated Islamic terrorist and a non-Islamic school shooter with no religious motives at all - it does not compare.

[Rockstar]

You're right Skybird I don't think more laws, training, warm and fuzzy talks, political activism will make any difference. There are too way too many variables i.e. mentally deviant people in this world who every day take advantage of freedoms you and I cherish.

Some will kill in the name of their religion others because they're out of their ever lovin' minds. They will take up arms with what ever is convenient. Acid, firearms, vehicles, swords, poison, dirty bombs whatever comes to their sick minds. Its the world we live. However, there are also very definite limits to just how much can be controlled and protecting everybody from everything is simply not an option.


Wish we here at Subsim could solve all the worlds ills and stop violent crime. But we cant. All an old geezer like yourself can do is set a good example for others to follow.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Does not compare. A religiously motivated Islamic terrorist and a non-Islamic school shooter with no religious motives at all - it does not compare.

I beg to differ. Take all the guns away and this is what you will get. The motive is irrelevant to the dead.

Semi automatic weapons have been around for almost 100 years. Mass school shootings have not. There is another factor at play.

[Skybird]

How many school and campus massacres there have been where a truck or bus was used?

As long as you do not wish to declare religious motives to be a sign of mental derangement (if I would say that, I would get crucified again...), an amok run by a mentally ill or instabile nuthead, and a relgiuously motvated djihadist do not compare in motivation. Lets not compare apples with oranges

Also, there is a strong correlation between availability/private possession of firearms, and male suicides committed by firearms. In Switzerland, where many households have assault rifles and other firearms due to the Swiss militia system, the rate stands out from all other european nations' standards. But it gets topped by severla factors by the American numbers. In standardized numbers, I seem to recall that in switzerland 2-3 times as many males use firearms tro commit suicide, than in other European countries, but in America, six times as many males use firearms for suicide than in Switzerland. I tell by memory, basing on numbers I recall from over 20 years ago.

I believe I read something similiar - to Switzerland - in trend about Finland, but I am not certain, and I have no interest to google this out.

Easy availability of firearms seems to be an attractor to raise male suicide rates in general. We do not only talk of shares of firearms used amongst all suicides there have been , but total suicide numbers being raised.

Weapons are a male attractor in general, encoded probably over thousands of years in which weapons played - and play - a major role for protection, hunting, waging war - and equalizing chances or gainign superior chances in all three cases. The difference is that males in Europe tend to dispise weapons to a wider degree nowadays than it seems to be the case in America. A look at why that is so, may be worthwhile.

I recall that in 1972 we were in holidays in Bavaria, I was 5 and it was football world championship. I was told by the grown-ups that in the house neighbouring the Alm hotel where we were, 2 or 3 km away, some man had shot himself in his head because right before the TV broadcast of a German match his TV broke down. They young boy that I was was was told all this, because I asked about my grandfather who for a long time could not stop laughing. Well. It pays off to always have a huntign rifle at hand. I assume he was a prepper.

[vienna]

Stephen Colbert Nails The NRA’s Complete Hypocrisy In A Single Sentence --

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry...ushpmg00000313

I’m surprised the NRA was affiliated with car rental companies at all, considering Hertz and Avis enforce tyrannical rules like “age restrictions” and “having a license.”
— Stephen Colbert (@StephenAtHome) February 27, 2018

<O>

[Armistead]

Originally Posted by Skybird

How many school and campus massacres there have been where a truck or bus was used?

As long as you do not wish to declare religious motives to be a sign of mental derangement (if I would say that, I would get crucified again...), an amok run by a mentally ill or instabile nuthead, and a relgiuously motvated djihadist do not compare in motivation. Lets not compare apples with oranges

Also, there is a strong correlation between availability/private possession of firearms, and male suicides committed by firearms. In Switzerland, where many households have assault rifles and other firearms due to the Swiss militia system, the rate stands out from all other european nations' standards. But it gets topped by severla factors by the American numbers. In standardized numbers, I seem to recall that in switzerland 2-3 times as many males use firearms tro commit suicide, than in other European countries, but in America, six times as many males use firearms for suicide than in Switzerland. I tell by memory, basing on numbers I recall from over 20 years ago.

I believe I read something similiar - to Switzerland - in trend about Finland, but I am not certain, and I have no interest to google this out.

Easy availability of firearms seems to be an attractor to raise male suicide rates in general. We do not only talk of shares of firearms used amongst all suicides there have been , but total suicide numbers being raised.

Weapons are a male attractor in general, encoded probably over thousands of years in which weapons played - and play - a major role for protection, hunting, waging war - and equalizing chances or gainign superior chances in all three cases. The difference is that males in Europe tend to dispise weapons to a wider degree nowadays than it seems to be the case in America. A look at why that is so, may be worthwhile.

I recall that in 1972 we were in holidays in Bavaria, I was 5 and it was football world championship. I was told by the grown-ups that in the house neighbouring the Alm hotel where we were, 2 or 3 km away, some man had shot himself in his head because right before the TV broadcast of a German match his TV broke down. They young boy that I was was was told all this, because I asked about my grandfather who for a long time could not stop laughing. Well. It pays off to always have a huntign rifle at hand. I assume he was a prepper.

Well, the preferred method in the UK before strict gun laws was with a gun, now hanging is number 1, but don't the gun numbers look so much better and the rate is basically the same.

[Armistead]

We have a mass shooting of 2 or more about every year or two. We have about 50 million kids in school, so it's figuring the 1-2 shooters out of 50 million, not good odds. Most our current gun laws aren't enforced, 38 states don't report 70% of their convictions to the database due to cost, issues, etc., yet the answer is an even bigger more expanded system. It's just feel good legislation. Ban the AR, someone will use a few handguns, as the Va Tech shooter did killing 32. I don't see the platform mattering as much as the dynamics, planning, etc., the AR I think is more a copycat thing.

[Rockstar]

Almost forgot, mailing hazardous materials via postal service is always an alternative for the deviant mind as well.


http://wjla.com/news/local/officials...l-in-arlington

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by Skybird

A little strawberry sauce also is very nice with this recipe, especially when the pudding is quite stiff. In this case I would increase the amount of vanilla, because vanilla and strawberry is a great combo.

But it seems somebody here does not like getting served the dish he has chosen. Why has he chosen it then...

That's funny crap.
Glad to see You are so high and mighty and place yourself above all us mere mortals.

Your wisdom should have us all bowing down before your throne.
All hail Skybird! The professor of the wisdom that all should seek!