Bush and the Geneva Convention

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Oh please!!! When was al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded?

Sometimes, policies spill over borders and presidential terms. But you would have understood what the title meant had you simply read the article before commenting.

[tycho102]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Oh please!!! When was al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded?

Not just al Qaeda.

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Abu Nidal Organization, Hezbollah, Al-Gamaat Al-Islamiyya, HAMAS, Lashkar-e-Tayyiba, Abu Sayyaf, Hizbul Mujahideen, Muslim Brotherhood, CAIR, and another thousand or two that I don't have the time to find or list.

They are all supported by islamic tithes. Some (20% is what I figure) of it goes to build madarassas and mosques and clerical luxuries, and the rest (80%) goes to fund jihad. And it all went through Iraq, just the same as it goes through Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon.

Jihad is jihad. It takes all sorts of people and skills. Some are better liars than others, and some are better marksmen than others.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by Perilscope

...quite quiet down south.

heh, try saying that five times very fast

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Sometimes, policies spill over borders and presidential terms. But you would have understood what the title meant had you simply read the article before commenting.

What that opinion says is we didn't invade Iraq in 98 so we showed al Qaeda we were weak?
I would say there was no particular 'reason' for bin Laden to commit terrorism. You can't say Clinton didn't try to get him. What reason was there for Spain or the spoiled plots in France.
The reason is he's on a self imposed jihad and thats the only reason he needs.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by tycho102

They are all supported by islamic tithes. Some (20% is what I figure) of it goes to build madarassas and mosques and clerical luxuries, and the rest (80%) goes to fund jihad. And it all went through Iraq, just the same as it goes through Egypt, Morocco, Algeria, Libya, Pakistan, Iran, Syria, Lebanon.

Jihad is jihad. It takes all sorts of people and skills. Some are better liars than others, and some are better marksmen than others.

You forgot to mention the USA, UK, Canada, France, Spain, Italy. So should we invade ourselves. The USA was/is a big contributor for the IRA. Should the U.K. invade the USA. Should we invade France?

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by The Noob

BUSH YOU SILLY OLD...

Damnit, this sucks! The Genva Convention is a Good thing. Bush just wants to get rid of it so he can Torture and shoot everyone who he dislikes. THATS NAZILAND 2! This time it's no stupid bull****, this time it's serious!

The Problem is to define terrorism.

If this does not get clear, if you shout "America Sucks and all americans should die" (No offence against anyone, i am just making an excample) Bush can just say "He's a Terrorist, Torture him and Blow his Brain out".

Bush already did enought nazi-things, like saying "Torture is only Torture if it can kill you", and already did enough stupid and outright Facist things, like bringing people outta country to torture them. If they found out he wasn't anything bad, they thrown him in the woods of an unknown country! Secret Black CIA (Yes the are another form of Terrorists/Insurgents) Flights across Europe, Heard of it?

I know this sounds Stupid as hell, but this SERIOUSLY concerns me. The USA gets more Nazi alike every day. Lets make a Overview.

Nazi Germany

Discriminated
Jewish, Poles, Russians

Torturing Camps:
Concentration Camps

Army=Wehrmacht:
Does everything for thier Leader and Commits war Crimes

Gestapo:
Secret Police with Power over everything

Leader:
Uncle Adolf Heilstoned, der brave honest superman Fuehrer

Excuse to start war:
Attack of Poland on Germany (Germany only faked it in this case!)

Now Comes USA!

USA

Discriminated:
Islamists, Middle East People

Torturing Camps:
Secret Prisons, Abu Graib, Guantanamo

Army:
Does everything for thier Leader, and does war crimes too!

CIA, NSA, ect:
Secret Police with Power over everything

Leader:
Georgie Bush, the Clean Honest Democatic elected always says the thruth blah blah blah guy.

Excuse to start war:
Attack on the USA on 9/11. (True in this case)

Does anyone get the Pattern?

Anyway, the Point is, (Sorry but i can only express this in German, it's a...Redewedung here) "Der Zweck heiligt nicht die mittel!". It means you can't justify every action with that good what shall come out in the end. Because it is usually utter horsesh**.

You cannot justify the Torturing and Killing of People, even if they are Terrorists. You are going to thier level.

There is a great movie that shows what can come out of such stuff. It's called "The Siege" and it would not Suprise me if it is banned in America.

The Avon Lady, i would normally ask you "ARE YOU *MEEP*ING CRAZY?!" but i will not, since you can in my Opinion not judge this, since you are under terrorist Attacks for a Long time "down there" in Israel, and a certain hate has build up. It is right we need to Stop the terrorists. I hate Terrorism. It is GAY! The shall come out and FIGHT in a Open war, and not hide in thier holes like Bugs Bunny, but SUCH INHUMAN methods are just...wrong. We are Lowering to thier levels. We are going back in time...staight to Nazi Germany 1942.

Heil Bush!

Forgetting Someone, like Al-Quida (i really dont give a **** how its spelled)

Discriminated:
Christains, Jews, USA, Israel, anyone who dosent follow islam

Torturing Camps:
Basements of apartments in which beheadings, torture, dismemberment, ect. occur

Army:
Fanatical psycos who blow-up themselves, blow-up civilians, assasinate political leaders, slaughter Christains, Rape women, slaughter childeren, vow to "wipe Israel off the face of the Earth." should I keep going?


Seceret Police types:
Fanatics with money with power over everything

Leader:
Osama Bin Laden, Iranian "president," wealthy pakastani mountain dwellers

Excuse to start holy war:
Christains/Jews are the devils. Want to spread Islam all over the world.

Makes me (and how many other people) wonder just whoose side you're on.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Forgetting Someone, like Al-Quida (i really dont give a **** how its spelled)

Discriminated:
Christains, Jews, USA, Israel, anyone who dosent follow islam

Torturing Camps:
Basements of apartments in which beheadings, torture, dismemberment, ect. occur

Army:
Fanatical psycos who blow-up themselves, blow-up civilians, assasinate political leaders, slaughter Christains, Rape women, slaughter childeren, vow to "wipe Israel off the face of the Earth." should I keep going?


Seceret Police types:
Fanatics with money with power over everything

Leader:
Osama Bin Laden, Iranian "president," wealthy pakastani mountain dwellers

Excuse to start holy war:
Christains/Jews are the devils. Want to spread Islam all over the world.

Makes me (and how many other people) wonder just whoose side you're on.

Funny :rotfl:But that about sums it up, sometimes its better to simplify things. "Peace or war, as you choose." , that was the only message the Roman diplomat had, at the start of the second Punic War in 218 BC, to the Carthaginians that had broken a treaty by invading a citystate allied to Rome. The Carhaginians tried to negotiate a new treaty, knowing that Rome was weak financially and militarily stretched out. But Romans realised that it was a decision that would decide their future. So their reply was the same, "Peace or war, as you choose."

[The Noob]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

[...]

Makes me (and how many other people) wonder just whoose side you're on.

I'm on the side of Sweden circa 1978, thats my side.

Now you want to accuse me to collerborate with Radical Islamists...

I'm on the side of blowing away all radicals. But not all islamists are radical crazy ones, like some of your politicans want to make it look like.

My side is Left Wing. Your side is, i guess, Conservative right wing, like most US Citizens. Perfect setup for a flame war of ideoligys.

(Warning: The last sentence was with sarcasm.)

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by scandium

Was it Harry S. Truman who was famous for having a sign on his desk reading "The buck stops here."?

When has GWB ever taken responsibility for any of the catastrophes that have occured on his watch? On 9/11 he sat in a classroom reading My Pet Goat while the country was under attack yet came out of it as a hero with US support at an all time high across the world, a unified house and senate, and a 90% approval rating; 6 years later his approval rating has been stuck in the toilet, partisanship, bickering, nationalism, and hatred toward the US are at levels never known before - and yet you don't think he has anything to do with that?

Whose decision was it to, solely, as Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces, to invade Iraq even though there was only a slim majority of support for it at home (and only after a 6 months systematicly and continually linking Iraq to 9/11, which we know is false, and claiming Iraq was an "eminent threat" to the US which we know is false, and that the US would be greeted as liberators, which we know is false) and overwhelming opposition to it abroad.

Then there's Katrina and "you're doing a heckuva job Brownie"; Brownie being the former Horse Commissioner that Bush put in charge of FEMA and who was obviously in way over his head when called on to perform the job Bush had appointed him to do.

That's just two classic examples of collosal screwups that Bush's fingerprints are all over - one would usually be enough for a person with any sense of decency and integrity to admit to himself that he is in over his head, and resign and let someone competent take over. But Bush doesn't even admit mistakes, he just ignores them or passes the buck.

Please show me some kind of proof that Bush has passed the buck.

[ASWnut101]

Originally Posted by scandium

The last paragraph, however, is especially damning because it illustrates in black and white that yet again the experts are right, have been right all along, and that the Bush admin efforts to win the "war on terror" are not only completely ineffective, they are actually fueling resentment toward the US and creating ever ripening conditions for terrorism to flourish and spread.

Please scandium, tell me where the "war on terror" has been completely ineffective...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Please scandium, tell me where the "war on terror" has been completely ineffective...

Hm... Taleban back in Afghanistan, stronger than ever before in the last five years... The country constantly detoriating due to too many broken promises for support, aide and money transfer... more terror globally... more terrorists globally, and in Iraq... Al Quaeda succesfully transformed from an organization to a thinking pattern and motivation that now is carried by every wannabee-martyrer who never had any link to the original organisation... Iraq dismantled of any structures that could have prevented it from falling like a ripe apple to the Shia Iranian mullahs... economical costs in the many thousands of billions if one thinks beyond the immediate military costs... - I think you have asked the wrong question. the right question is: where has the WOT been effective...? We have multiplied our worries, not reduced them. So far exactly the opposite has been acchieved of what was wanted to be acchieved. The world is not safer, but more violant now. but the most important thing is: jihad has been massively accelerated, fueled, additonally motivated, assisted. We have lost time. Islam should payt us to serve it's public relation interests. The last three years we have proven that we are specialists in winning them additonal support and leading new jihad recruits to them. Incompetence, irgnorrance, arrogance, extremely bad planning and worse preparation in advance - stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. WOT is a stupid phrase and thus an adequate description for the symptoms of this giant folly. And it has been waged in a stupid way from the beginning. Terror is just a weapon, we need to strike the ideology and thinking that makes use of it. additonally, military war is an all-or-nothing-at-all thing for me. You only should wage it if you are determined to completely wipe out your enemy and all and everything that supports him and keeps his strength intact - AT ALL COSTS, no matter hoe cruel they are. The Israelis don't understand that anymore. The Americans don't understand that anymore. And the other European nations also do not understand it anymore. We are too soft. we are not grim enough for war, and we are too noble for fighting a war like it needs to be fought. we make to many compromsies - in the name of humanitarianism and love. We love life, Islam loves death. Christian martyrers suffer defensively and passively, Islamic martyrers actively and aggressively kill enemies. We hold our other cheek to the enemy - they cut not the cheek, but the whole head. Christian armies, although superior in weaponry and armour, throughout the centuries had been outclassed in motivation and combat spirit by their Muslims attackers. Our noble attitude - is no match for Islam's lack of scruples. That's why we are loosing. we must stop wanting to change Islam, to make it weaker, it will not work. We must change ourselves, must become stronger, and giving up some of our "civilised" reason and scruples.

[ASWnut101]

And from what source did you see these from?

p.s. but I do agree with you about how the world is getting "soft."

The terrorist fly airplane into buildings, kill 3,000+
We drop bomb on Taliban safehouse, kill 20 civilians. America is now seen as barbarians to the outside world. half the world is now screaming "death to America"

plus many of you are missing a critical factor:
you blame our President,(dictator to The Noob), on everything that the US has done. In REALITY, he is not our ultimite decision maker, like in other countries. EVERYTHING related to this matter is actually passed through the SENATE, which is elected by the PEOPLE. President has little power compared to Senate and Congress. HE (Bush) IS NOT THE US's ULTAMITE DECISION MAKER. ITS THE SENATE, WHO ARE BEURACRATS ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE!

Many of you who live outside the US obviously have no clue about how our country runs. You just follow what your government says, and you accept that as reality. You belive what your government is telling you, while here in the USA, we belive what we feel is right. That is what makes us one of the most powerful in the world. FREEDOM OF SPEECH and the FREEDOM OF PRESS is something some of you apparently don't have in your States, Countries, and Colonies. You are beliveing in lies, whatever you are told to (even if inderectly). STOP BLAMING BUSH AS THE "MASTERMIND" BEHIND ALL OF THIS PRO-USA "TERROR."

-ASWnut

[August]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

In REALITY, he is not our ultimite decision maker, like in other countries. EVERYTHING related to this matter is actually passed through the SENATE, which is elected by the PEOPLE. President has little power compared to Senate and Congress.

This has been pointed out to them more than once ASWnut.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

And from what source did you see these from?

p.s. but I do agree with you about how the world is getting "soft."

The terrorist fly airplane into buildings, kill 3,000+
We drop bomb on Taliban safehouse, kill 20 civilians. America is now seen as barbarians to the outside world. half the world is now screaming "death to America"

No one seriously complained when you sturkc Afghnaistan. when people complained abiut Iraq - then maybe this is because there were no terrorists there, and Saddam had nothing to do with 9-11, or Al Quaeda. you should been stayed focussed on Afghanistan, and leave Iraq alone - it was no more a dnager to anyone, Saddam'S teeth had been drawn - he could balk but not bite, plus he had the lack of sacrupels to crack down the religious extremists. But Afghnaistan now is close to falling back into the abyss you have promised them to lift out of. Half of the finacial oney being promised - never arrived. Support went down and down. Stupoid economical mistakes had been made, that forced many farmers to plant poppy again, if they wanted to survive. The military presence was so low that the Taleban were allowed to regroup, and come back - in force. And one of their major supporters, Pakistan, is presented to the public as an "ally".

With all that criticism Amnerica has earned for it's folly in Iraq - it just got what it deserved. when you make stuoid ideas, don'T expect other nations to join you althought hey warned you and told you that it would turn into exactly what you see now. It's your own responsebility. when my friend jumps out of the window, I do not jump behind him in misunderstood solidarity. Instead I try to talk it out of his head in advance and warn him that it is the fifth floor. If he still jumps, and survives, I afterwards tell him that he has behaved like an idiot.

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Terror is just a weapon, we need to strike the ideology and thinking that makes use of it. additonally, military war is an all-or-nothing-at-all thing for me. You only should wage it if you are determined to completely wipe out your enemy and all and everything that supports him and keeps his strength intact - AT ALL COSTS, no matter hoe cruel they are. The Israelis don't understand that anymore. The Americans don't understand that anymore. And the other European nations also do not understand it anymore. We are too soft. we are not grim enough for war, and we are too noble for fighting a war like it needs to be fought. we make to many compromsies - in the name of humanitarianism and love. We love life, Islam loves death. Christian martyrers suffer defensively and passively, Islamic martyrers actively and aggressively kill enemies. We hold our other cheek to the enemy - they cut not the cheek, but the whole head. Christian armies, although superior in weaponry and armour, throughout the centuries had been outclassed in motivation and combat spirit by their Muslims attackers. Our noble attitude - is no match for Islam's lack of scruples. That's why we are loosing. we must stop wanting to change Islam, to make it weaker, it will not work. We must change ourselves, must become stronger, and giving up some of our "civilised" reason and scruples.

Il simplify if someone didnt get Skybirds post. We have to start killing them in large numbers untill they surrender and do what we demand. And to anyone wondering , the answer is yes, i am ready to personally fight in this war. Are you?:p