The future of europe?/Islam threads (Merged)

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by scandium

This is where their arguements ultimately collapse, and are shown for the irrational hatred and intolerance that is behind them. To use the recent plot in Canada as an example, again, the people here advocating this collective guilt and collective punishment would have us blame the entire Muslim community of tens of thousands for the acts of 17, and then do what? Strip them of their Canadian citizenship and deport them? Turn them out of their homes and put them in camps? Line a few up in Town's Square and shoot them? Madness, and the people who advocate such are no better than those they condemn.

Maybe if muslims of stature speak out in the media against these islamic terrorist some minds might be changed. Silence spells consent. I think thats a major part of what gives me the "They" attitude. You don't see muslims speaking out.

[Yahoshua]

@Caspofungin:

If I recall correctly, the British had LOTS of time to leave the King David Hotel and were telephoned at least twice before the bomb blew up. And I'm apalled that you'd accuse me of trying to support terrorism in the form of the Stern Gang, and their likes. Because they didn't attack civilians, they attacked BRITISH SOLDIERS. Which is in reality, a declaration of war. NOT terrorism.

And what right did the British have to turn back on their word and break an agreement they've made? And might I remind you that a large number of Jewish units also fought alongside the British in driving back the Nazis from North Africa. Where was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem at that time? Oh my, he was buddy-buddy with Hitler at the time (the Grand Mufti is one of Yassir Arafats relatives). And whaddya know? He's an Arab.

And no, I'm not "All about loving my neighbhor." Hamas in not my neighbhor. The PLO is not my neighbhor. Fatah is not my neighbhor. These are TERRORISTS. And they are my enemy. And if I had the choice I'd execute every single terrorist that was captured with rifle rounds dipped in Lard if it'd get them to stop attacking us. Terrorists have no rights. And I don't deny that there's a harsh anti-arab feeling in the Jewish community. All the terrorists that have murdered civilians there, and are trying to steal Israeli land are arabs.

And if you could hand me a list naming EVERY SINGLE DEMONSTRATOR who marched after 7/7 then I'd have a pretty good idea of who's trying to kill me and who isn't. And on a national level, Jordan is the ONLY arab country I'd even be comfortable having friendly and diplomatic relations with.

And yes, I do hold everyone to the same standard. It is you who doesn't.

If you do your part in turning in a terrorist (if the oppurtunity presents itself), and absolutely oppose the killing of unarmed civilians regardless of circumstane and nationality, then I have a pretty good chance that you're not going to come after me and I'd have nothing against you. Hell, if I even lived next door to you we could be pretty good friends, but until you can demonstrate yourself as an individual, I judge nations and communities by a collective plate.

And we hold ourselves to the same standards as well. For example, several years ago some "settlers" carried out a drive-by-shooting on Arab civilians. This is against the rules of war, and they were punished accordingly. I don't see the "Palestinians" doing the same. Rather I see an encouragement of that behavior. And because they encourage it I judge them as a whole. After all it was the PEOPLE who elected Hamas to government.

@ Scandium:

Well Scandium, the ay you put it actually seems to be a bit much in the way of National Security. But of course, why in the world would we suspect the Moslem community of harboring terrorists, when ALL the terrorism that has occurred so far been committed by Jews?

Do I advocate the mass slaughter of moslems? No. Do I advocate deportation if they refuse to cooperate with authorities regarding the turning in of suspected terrorists and refuse to condemn terroist actions? Absolutely. After all, they're being treated quite humanely at Guantan.......in fact I hear that obesity has become quite a problem over there. Not that people here want to listen to the facts of the matter.

[caspofungin]

I'm apalled that you'd accuse me of trying to support terrorism

easy, tiger. where's the accusation? where did you get that?

the British had LOTS of time to leave the King David Hotel and were telephoned at least twice before the bomb blew up

controversial. the british view is that the phone call was placed to the hotel switchboard less than a minute before the bomb went off.

Which is in reality, a declaration of war. NOT terrorism

no? definition of terrorism, from the us department of defense -- "the calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological." which fits both the irgun and the stern gang.

when ALL the terrorism that has occurred so far been committed by Jews?

ah, the lowest form of wit and the highest of humour. except that's not really funny. all i'm pointing out is that arabs don't have a monoploy on committing terrorist acts.

Jewish units also fought alongside the British in driving back the Nazis from North Africa

absolutely. jews fought in every allied army. but (hold on to your chair) i've nothing against jews. but i'm an arab, and i'm a muslim, so i must be anti-semitic?

and, yes, i know the 13th ss division was raised from croats, mainly muslim -- they were mainly deployed in yugoslavia as anti-partisan units.

but don't forget there were arabs and muslims in commonwealth forces in europe and the china-burma-india theaters.

All the terrorists that have murdered civilians there, and are trying to steal Israeli land are arabs.

there's been plenty of arab civilians killed as collateral damage by israeli forces in palestine and lebanon. do you see me calling every jew or every israeli a murderer? and if everyone agreed they were israeli -- and only israeli -- lands, israel would be a lot quieter -- but they're not, so it isn't.

After all, they're being treated quite humanely at Guantan

yep, so humanely their dying to get out, ho ho ho. but it's only right that they're being treated humanely, because after all they've done... wait, what have they done? sure, i'd absolutely agree that some of the prisoners constitute a threat to the us. but all? and why haven't they been charged? with anything?

Do I advocate deportation if they refuse to cooperate with authorities regarding the turning in of suspected terrorists and refuse to condemn terrorist actions? Absolutely.

really? so were you calling for the mass deportation of anyone of irish descent from mainland great britain when the ira was busy with their bombing campaigns?

as i recall, it was pretty easy for the ira to get funding from private citizens in the us -- after all, they were legitimate resistance fighters engaged against an army of occupation -- oh, and all their civilian support, too. sound familiar? but that must've been ok, because they were good catholic lads...

and who gets to judge what "cooperation" and "condemnation" are? you? arabs and muslims have been cooperating with the authorities (in the uk at least) and they've condemned terrorist actions, too. so let me get this right -- every time an arab or a muslim commits a terrorist act, every single arab and muslim elsewhere has to stand up and be counted and condemn them? fair enough. but then i'll expect you to stand up and condemn the deaths of innocent palestinians, the collateral damage from the idf's actions. actually, i won't -- because i'm not the one advocating collective punishment and abrogating an individuals right to be treated on the basis of his or her own actions. but let's look back at your posts...

And I don't deny that there's a harsh anti-arab feeling in the Jewish community.

understandable. i can understand why the israelis feel they have to act the way they do, even if i don't agree with it. i can empathize with others. can you understand that there's a harsh anti-israeli feeling in palestine? can you understand why? can you empathize? because if not, if you truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that it's right and justified to kill innocent palestinian civilians, then i guess we don't have a lot more to talk about.

Hell, if I even lived next door to you we could be pretty good friends

i'd like to think so.

[TteFAboB]

caspofungin,

Israelis chose to bring down their "Nazi Jews" as Ben-Gurion named them.

Open your history book about the Altalena again. Do you remember who Olmert is? He was from the Irgun, remember?

This is something that NEVER happened in Palestine, with Palestinians, by Yasser Arafat or Abbas or by the Hamas. Where is the Stern Gang today?! Are they blowing Palestinian restaurants to bits every week, or attempting to do so?

The pressure to drop terrorism in Israel came from inside, Palestinians however still didn't had their Altalena moment.

Did Arafat ever opposed the Al-Aqsa brigades? What will happen to the Izz Al-Sin Al-Qassam? Will they be brought down?

Israel is now swimming in a democratic centralism (ie. no more ideological utopy) with plans on the table (define fixed borders by 2010, get rid of some settlements, etc.), what's the plan of the Hamas? If Khaled Mashaal is right, then it is "not to transform Gaza in Hong Kong [in other words, they don't have a problem with poverty, they want poverty because then they can blame Israel for it and recruit new martyrs], but we promise a digne, proud life and resistance to the occupiers of our land".

Alot was done wrong in the Israeli occupation, but how will the Hamas exercise this resistance? Diplomatically?

Say what you want about Israel, what we see once again is the Arab and/or Muslim world lagging behind. Will they take the next step toward moderation and purge, marginalize and defeat their extremists like the Israelis did?

Kissinger believes it might happen, either that or the Hamas will accept a non-declared peace deal (you go your way, I go mine, we don't blow each other), I don't like Kissinger at a personal level, but this time, I hope he's right.

The only choice are the institutions, thus the terror boat must be sunk.

Only a terrorist would disagree (Kissinger trade-mark).

[caspofungin]

The pressure to drop terrorism in Israel came from inside, Palestinians however still didn't had their Altalena moment

correct me if i'm wrong, but the altalena incident was about a government attempt to enforce its will on more violent/confrontational elements. isn't that what's been happening in palestine? abbas and the pa trying to enforce their authority on militant groups which are more confrontational? abbas' failure to assert his authority led, in part, to the victory of hamas. there are those who say abbas' efforts were hamstrung from the get-go.

Say what you want about Israel, what we see once again is the Arab and/or Muslim world lagging behind. Will they take the next step toward moderation and purge, marginalize and defeat their extremists like the Israelis did?

Kissinger believes it might happen, either that or the Hamas will accept a non-declared peace deal (you go your way, I go mine, we don't blow each other), I don't like Kissinger at a personal level, but this time, I hope he's right.

i'm with you totally.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Maybe if muslims of stature speak out in the media against these islamic terrorist some minds might be changed. Silence spells consent. I think thats a major part of what gives me the "They" attitude. You don't see muslims speaking out.

A public speaker saying this or that is not important. They need to turn it into a correct and valid fatwa given by their highest representatives, with reference to Koran (here is where the demanded content of the fatwa faces difficulty, since I cannot see any passage in the Koran that could be a undisputable basis for banning violance against non-Muslims, and prohibit to overcome their territories), and it is to be preferred that the fatwa also includes the formulation that it is irreversible and does not have only a limit validity, time-wise.

And then one needs to see them taking care of those in their middle that does not follow that fatwa, and violate it. Will not happen.

Just a political declaration is worth nothing, Islam explicitly allows the deceiving and misleading of infidels for the advantage of Islam or even just a single Muslim, additionally Arabs and many people along the Northafrican countries and Turkey tend to get drunk and enrapture themselves with their own picturesque language (reference to the dramatic and pathetic verbal pictures, metaphors and euphemism that are common rule, maybe you have noticed how dramatiozed their speaches are when some political statement is translated during the daily news). Expression of their different, hotter and less disciplined temperaments, I assume.

Point is: they can give you a valid political treaty - and since Sharia and Koran overrules such things, they are still allowed to ignore these treaties without bad conscience. Only a fatwa that fulfills all criterias for validity and is undisputed in the rows of their authorized clerics is a substantial basis.

And fatwas of that kind, and on the issues we Westerners would demand, we will not get from them. The Koran simply does not has a basis on which western political and ethical and philosophical understandings could be based upon. Without reference to such criterias inside the Quran, a fatwa is no fatwa.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

there's plenty of christian expatriates in saudi arabia -- they're not being lined up at the execution square. no, they're working in well-paid jobs with great benefits.

http://www.compassdirect.org/en/lead.php

Do you now what happens to you when you "smuggle" a Bible into Saudi Arabia, because you happen to be Christian? You laugh it off? Well, here is something to make you laugh:

http://www.thesundaymail.news.com.au...5E1702,00.html

[Yahoshua]

3 entries found for terrorism.

ter·ror·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tr-rzm)
n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.
[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
Main Entry: ter·ror·ism
Pronunciation: 'ter-&r-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the unlawful use or threat of violence esp. against the state or the public as a politically motivated means of attack or coercion
2 : violent and intimidating gang activity <street terrorism> —ter·ror·ist /-ist/ adj or noun —ter·ror·is·tic /"ter-&r-'is-tik/ adjective

Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.
terrorism
n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear [syn: act of terrorism, terrorist act]

Courtesy of Dictionary.com.

The definition you posted, does indeed fit the Stern Gang and the Irgun. But I don't recall any of the Irgun members kidnapping British civilians and beheading them. But MY definition of terrorism is the last one one this list:...."the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians...." In regards to the Stern Gang, I have deep reservations about them for even having considered diplomatic relations with the Nazis. Although I'm thankful that they brought the infamous Lord Folke to justice for his crimes.

However, when using your definition, nobody here would sing the tune of the Star Spangled Banner knowing that Washington and his cohorts were actually terrorists bent on the destruction of the English Commonwealth. I'd also like to point out that a number of out government institutions are diseased with at least two things: Legislationitis and Bureaucracy. (I finally spelled it right for once).


"easy, tiger. where's the accusation? where did you get that?"

I don't support terrorism, and you called them terrorists. You even said so yourself: ".....which fits both the irgun and the stern gang."

A Website about the Stern Gang: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stern_Gang
And a website about Irgun: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
Here is a website detailing the operation: http://www.etzel.org.il/english/ac10.htm


It states that the bomb exploded 25 minutes after the call. If you could find a link to an article regarding the British view I'd be happy to read it.


"ah, the lowest form of wit and the highest of humour."

I know I might be a bit slow but mommy says I'm special.


"but don't forget there were arabs and muslims in commonwealth forces in europe and the china-burma-india theaters."

And I haven't forgotten them. And I'm thankful they were on our side....at least with the Allied powers that is.


"there's been plenty of arab civilians killed as collateral damage by israeli forces in palestine and lebanon."

Yes, this is true, and it saddens me that such loss of life must be suffered at all. But if the terorists were to simply STOP. Then it wouldn't happen. And if one side continues to attack, and the other retaliates, then who is at fault? The one who attacks, or the other who retaliates?


"i'd absolutely agree that some of the prisoners constitute a threat to the us."

Good, we agree on something.


"but all? and why haven't they been charged? with anything?"

Now this is where our wonderful American beauracracy f*cks up absolutely EVERYTHING. How it should go is: Arrest, Charges, Trial, and sentencing. How it goes right now is: Arrest, Jail, maybe some charges, but no hope of trial or sentencing. This is where filtering should occur. Terrorists are kept, and innocents are not.

I like the first method better, and I should point out that here in America, Uncle Sam is NOT your friend (or mine for that matter).

"really? so were you calling for the mass deportation of anyone of irish descent from mainland great britain when the ira was busy with their bombing campaigns?"

I wasn't around for that and don't actually know all that much regarding the history of the Irish Republican War other than it was motivated mainly by religious reasons. (If you're still intent on pursuing this angle of the debate, then I'll read up on it and give you an answer).


"if you truly, in your heart of hearts, believe that it's right and justified to kill innocent palestinian civilians, then i guess we don't have a lot more to talk about."

If that's what I thought then this thread would've been shut down and I'd be reported to the police for incitement of racist speech and hate crimes. But you also have to ask yourself if these needless casualties could've been avoided if the terrorists hadn't been hiding in POPULATED AREAS.

I should also point out to you that Israel had not brought in the artillery several years ago when the bombings were far worse. But now that they're there, I'm guessing that the IDF cares less and less about collateral damage. I wonder why that could be......


"can you understand that there's a harsh anti-israeli feeling in palestine? can you understand why? can you empathize?"

Can I truly empathize for them? Possibly, if they weren't busy electing Hamas into office, and cheering on Arafat when he was at the podium declaring that he'd "Drive the Jews into the sea." And if it were solely the case of purposely forcing these people into camps and the IDF massacreing them at will when these refugees did no wrong to other groups nor made any agressive moves against their neighbor, I might've been able to empathise with them.

But as far as the process I've seen, it sort of goes something like this: Terrorist wants infidel Jews gone, Terrorist blows up bus, Infidel Jews retaliate, Some terrorists die and collateral damage results. Victims of collateral damage wail about their suffering on TV and get publicity, Infidel Jews are blamed as the agressors and punished for their action, Everyone forgets/ignores who started the fight and that there are victims of the bus bombing too, Biased Liberal media doesn't care and ignores that aspect (so much for fair and balanced). Infidel Jews offer land-for-peace deal that is rejected and another bombing occurs, with complimentary retalitaion. The mess is cleaned up and then the cycle is repeated.

I must admit, there are even times when I find myself calling for a carpet bombing to simply end the matter. But I know that it's wrong morally and ethically to do so.


"but i'm an arab, and i'm a muslim, so i must be anti-semitic?"

Do you believe the passages in the Q'uran stating that infidels who refuse to submit to Islam be exterminated? If you say no, then I don't really consider you a Moslem. I can't tell you what you are, but you're not a Moslem if that's what you deny. And if you do believe that all infidels should be exterminated and believe everything else about Islam, then you fit the criteria of being a Moslem.

I simply am unable to picture a true moslem tearing out half the Q'uran in order to "Modernize." Especially since all the words in those books were written by Mohammed and passed down from him. And a good deal of the Q'uran is dedicated towards the extermination of Jews and Christians.

How are you able to explain all of that away and still be a Moslem?


"....i'd like to think so."

As do I. I just want to be able to leave my pistol locked in my safe instead of having it loaded next to my bed for once. But until things change (however that change may occur), I'm keeping my sidearm within a moments reach at all times.

[Iceman]

Russian Song

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Russian Song

Lyrics:

In europe and america, theres a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the soviets
Mr. krushchev said we will bury you
I dont subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from oppenheimers deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president
Theres no such thing as a winnable war
Its a lie that we dont believe anymore
Mr. reagan says we will protect you
I dont subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the russians love their children too

Are these the Russians?

Do we have the same biology?

No such thing as a winnable war (1)?

No such thing as a winnable war (2)?

Common sense?

Silly nilly song?

[Yahoshua]

Great post Avon Lady.....I really get alot of info off your posts here. Thanks.

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Lyrics:

In europe and america, theres a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the soviets
Mr. krushchev said we will bury you
I dont subscribe to this point of view
It would be such an ignorant thing to do
If the russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy from oppenheimers deadly toy
There is no monopoly in common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president
Theres no such thing as a winnable war
Its a lie that we dont believe anymore
Mr. reagan says we will protect you
I dont subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the russians love their children too

We share the same biology
Regardless of ideology
What might save us, me, and you
Is that the russians love their children too

Are these the Russians?

Do we have the same biology?

No such thing as a winnable war (1)?

No such thing as a winnable war (2)?

Common sense?

Silly nilly song?

Holy Cow Batman...Only you would think it a silly nilly song? with a question mark????

Do ya really think peace is a silly willie notion?

People are people....you don't have to be a Jew or Muslim to think governments and religions are Screwed Up do ya really Avon Lady?

Do you even have to think about it? Good grief Charlie Brown it is a song for crying out loud.You seem to have a heart like stone it appears Avon Lady.Not everything is a plot....Smell some roses sometime.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Holy Cow Batman...Only you would think it a silly nilly song? with a question mark????

Do ya really think peace is a silly willie notion?

No, and I didn't say so. Peace is the ultimate utopia, if you can achieve it. I said the song is silly - specifically many of the lyrics. Follow my links to see why.

Sometimes wars are forced upon us. Hitler did it. Now Islam is. Unless, of course, you consider the possibility of the west capitulating and living as dhimmis under Islamic sha'aria law as the epitomy of peace. Islam views it as such. Perhaps you agree?

It would be lovely if there was no evil in the world but, as you and I know, that's only going to show up later on in this world.

"Sin will be vanquished from the earth and the wicked will be no more; my soul, bless the Lord. Hallelujah." - Psalm 104:35

People are people....you don't have to be a Jew or Muslim to think governments and religions are Screwed Up do ya really Avon Lady?

I never said otherwise.

Do you even have to think about it? Good grief Charlie Brown

Leave Chuck outta this!

it is a song for crying out loud.

It's a song that expresses nonsense from a historical and philosophical perspective. "Silly Nilly" is a fitting description indeed.

But if you think sitting in a circle singing Kumbaya-Kumbaya is going to bring peace and harmony to mankind, then by all means do so.

You seem to have a heart like stone it appears Avon Lady.

I am a realist. I do not care for pessimism and I hedge myself against fantasy based optimism.

You don't know me. Nor my family. You haven't an inkling of the charity work and community activities that I'm involved with. You have no concept, so it would seem, of the adoration and appreciation I personally have for my country of birth, the United States, for my grave concern for its citizens, for my pain in what I witnessed on 9/11 and for my fear of what's coming up in this world that may potentially affect most everyone around the globe.

I don't have a heart of stone any more than you have eyes of lead for not being able to see me for what I am. Like I said, you don't know me.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Are these the Russians?

Maybe this should be spun off as a separate subject.

Taleban use children as shields to fight British.

Russians? NYET!

[The Avon Lady]

Another small step for Eurabia: A Muslim Constitution in Europe.