Guess the country: Spain and the struggle of Catalonia for freedom

[Oberon]

D I R E C T R U L E F R O M M A D R I D

[Hitman]

Funny that you say I use double standards, when it is clearly you who is doing that. You clearly pretend that the majority of catalans can own the minority - which is exactly the opposite of what you said was your position. It is not me who is using double standards, or twisting things. I always said that the majority of spanish population can decide over a minority of catalans, you however denied that with this:

Nobody has the right to own somebody else against his will. This is what it comes down to. It does not matter whether it is a claim raised in political or historical or religious context, it just does not matter, never, and it never shall matter for sure. Just this.

And yet, now you say that a majority of catalans can actually own the minority of catalans -be it to stay in Spain or split from it.

Well, everybody is prisoner of his words and master of his silences and I believe you have already shown clearly that you have no coherent argument on the matter -Besides a badly informed knowledge of our history.

[MrLovelyName!]

Yea this is quite a sad time to be alive...

[mapuc]

Have just heard, that Carles Puigdemont have rejected the action Madrid toke earlier today, Saturday.

I can't figure out if this activating article 155 will make the situation better or worse in Catalonia and/or Spain.

Markus

[Hitman]

Time will tell, but at this point it was obvious that Madrid had to make a decission. It was impossible to continue like this, the catalan administration was in a status of paralysis and the investors and companies were fleeing and depleting the banks. Ironically, if Catalonia stays in Spain they will probably have become a poor region nobody trusts, so their financial claim will at least be shelved -as they will need to be bailed out.

[Skybird]

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_7709220.html

In German, sorry.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Have just heard, that Carles Puigdemont have rejected the action Madrid toke earlier today, Saturday.

I can't figure out if this activating article 155 will make the situation better or worse in Catalonia and/or Spain.

Markus

Nothing could be worse than the aplication of article 155

1- Cessation of the democratically elected Parliament by Catalan citizens

2- Imposition of holding new elections against the will of the Catalan people. Prohibition of being presented to the new elections to certain Catalan politicians.

3- Prohibition of being presented to these elections to the parties that are in favor of the Independence of Catalonia

4- Control of the Catalan media (especially the public) so that they do not issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government. These media are the only ones that issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government.

5- Catalonia ceases to have control over its finances

6- All the competences of the Catalan Government are exercised by Madrid for an indefinite period.

7- Summarized in one sentence: to return to the situation that existed during the dictatorship of Franco.

This is a message to Europe: today is the people of Catalonia, tomorrow could be you.

[Nikita]

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://www.focus.de/politik/ausland/...d_7709220.html

In German, sorry.

I could not read the article in German. I know the thinking of this writer and I am convinced that the article is very interesting, but now is too late to translate it or I'm too lazy to do it, choose the one you think best.

Do you know that the presentation of one of his books in Holland was boycotted by the Spanish embassy?

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/b...inol-1.2072782gl

[mapuc]

@ Nikita

So it made the situation worse than it was already

Your response to my earlier posting, made me remember a FB-friend who wrote-Will this be the spark that started the second civil war.

I hope not-I hope this will be the beginning for a new and better era for Catalonia.

Markus

[Hitman]

1- Cessation of the democratically elected Parliament by Catalan citizens

False, only the government is ceased.

2- Imposition of holding new elections against the will of the Catalan people.

Remaining without government is no viable option, and it amazes me that calling people to vote is an imposition. It seems it is not when calling for an illegal referendum. So much for double standards ...

3- Prohibition of being presented to these elections to the parties that are in favor of the Independence of Catalonia

Where the hell did you get that from? That is simply a lie. Please LINK to any official statement saying this. Only the courts have the power to make such a decission, and it has not been made. This is simply a(nother) blatant lie.

4- Control of the Catalan media (especially the public) so that they do not issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government. These media are the only ones that issue opinions contrary to those of the Spanish Government.

Control has not yet been taken, and you already can state that it will ban opinions contrary to the government. What an impressive amount of
future guessing, could you please tell me what number will be prized in the Xmas lottery also? Plus, it affects only the public TV3 media, used to promote disturbs and a sectarian singel vision of things, but not in any case the private media. For that, again, a court rule would be required. Please LINK to that decission from a court, or face the fact you just dropped another lie.

5- Catalonia ceases to have control over its finances

Catalonia and the whole Spain are in fact intervened by the EU since years. Welcome to the reality.

6- All the competences of the Catalan Government are exercised by Madrid for an indefinite period.

Again false, it has a maximum of 6 months and is subject to elections in that term.

7- Summarized in one sentence: to return to the situation that existed during the dictatorship of Franco.

This is the most ridiculous of all. With Franco nobody would be able to speak catalan, demonstate on the streets, or voice his opinions. All which people are doing continuously. This is pure propaganda to touch sentiments.

Again show a LINK to an official decission of suspending the fundamental rights of all citizens (Arts. 14 to 29), which never existed with Franco, or asume you lied again.

I will tell you what law was passed that actually supressed all that: The referndum law by the catalan government, which eliminated the spanish legality including those basic rights as long as they were opposed to the referndum. And I do put links to support it, here you go:

http://www.elperiodico.com/es/politi...na-pdf-6147161

Basically, all basic rights including life, personal health and integrity, free opinion, etc as included in the spanish constitution are not valid as soon as they oppose the celebration of the referendum. In other words, had catalan police followed it literally, they would have had to shoot the spanish police trying to impede it - or any citizen helping them. Fortunately, nobody was mad enough for that.

[mapuc]

I don't know which one of you two are right or wrong.

I do know that the government in Catalonia, including Puigdemont will be fired and will not receive any payment.
This was said on Danish News. It said that if the parlament on Friday decide to follow Rajoy proposal activating article 155 Carles Puigdemont and others in his catalonia government will be fired and they will not get any payment thereafter.

And as I understand it will mean that those people from Catalonia who wish an independent state will not have any governmental support, if they are fired from Madrid

Markus

[Hitman]

Mapuc,

in my opinion there is no fundamental right or wrong in this all, in its core it's a matter of principles one might share or not and I personally respect and believe in a good amount of what many catalans want. What I don't like however, and which brought me here is the intoxication that the independentits are creating. Since the very beginning they were very active in the international scene because they knew their only chance was putting international pressure on Spain. That failed when the EU backed the spanish government but they certainly have the sympathy of many people elsewhere -sometimes because they share independentism, sometimes because they believe they are truly opressed, sometimes because they just want to see Spain implode for whatever reasons.

The spanish constitution of 1978 allows its own modification including -if the agreement exists- giving independence to a part of it. The independentists however never promoted such a debate loyally in the spanish parliament -and that despite having a parliamentary group there and having been key for stability many years. Their group could have promoted the initiative to discuss such things in an open debate and vote in the spanish parliament but they never did it. Thinking it would fail is no excuse, they should have promoted that debate where it had to be done, and then said: "We have loyally tried it as the spanish constitution says, and we got the door closed in our noses". As things are, what they did was disloyally manipulate population using their TV and their powers in education (There are hundreds of protests logged over the years against indoctrination and exclusion of spanish language and culture, as well as court rules systematically non obeyed about the minimal amount of hours of spanish language in education) and push the population into an open confrontation with existing legality. That I do not support by any means, though I would have supported them if they had done things as they are meant to be done.

Their claim about Spain not letting them free is not acceptable when they haven't even knocked on the door of the procedures they themselves approved by 90% in 1978 when the Constitution was voted.

[Hitman]

Le Monde unveils and critizises the manipulation on the catalan public TV as well as the disloyal attitude of independentists. It also specifically dismisses as lies the claim of a return to dictatorship as with Franco:

http://www.lemonde.fr/idees/article/...4732_3232.html

In french only. But so you can see there are also serious voices outside Spain who support a different version than that of the independentists.

[Nikita]

I found a very interesting document on this subject about Spain and Catalonia, among other countries. It is on the web of The U. S. House of Representatives.

Title: “U.S. Policy Toward National Self-Determination Movements”

Testimony of Dr. Paul Williams Rebecca I. Grazier Professor of Law and International Relations American University President and Co-Founder, Public International Law and Policy Group

House Committee on Foreign Affairs Subcommittee on Europe, Eurasia, and Emerging Threats

Here you are, <a href="http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA14/20160315/104672/HHRG-114-FA14-Wstate-WilliamsP-20160315.pdf" target="_blank">http://docs.house.gov/meetings/FA/FA14/20160315/104672/HHRG-114-FA14-Wstate-WilliamsP-20160315.pdf</a>

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hitman

disloyal attitude of independentists

Gotta love this nonsense. Want your freedom and demand not to be milked by others by force - and you are "disloyal".


Reject socialist plundering by state and lobby groups, and you are "anti-social". Refuse to follow the stupidity of another state's EU policies, and you are "anti-solidaric". Refuse equal privileges to homosexual couples like for families raising children (if there is any protection for these left...), and you are homophobic. Call Islam totalitarian and racist, what by ideological content it is, and you are racist yourself. Demand controlled and discriminating migration policy replacing uncontrolled mass movement, and you are xenophobic. Enjoy that you have somethign that you like, and get called cold-hearted and unsensitive to the injustice in the world. Claim the right to resist to an attacker by force, and get called violent and "not better than he is" yourself.

Refuse the claim of a slaveholder that he owns you, and you are getting called "disloyal".


Ford said that the Model-T was available in just any colour customers would wish, as long as it was Black.