Subsim front page article that pissed me off

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

What rest of them?
How many in that particular trial got the death penalty(not counting those who died or those aquitted) ?

So where do you want to start?
(A)?
where exactly did these civilian slaves come from?

(C)?
How many POWs were used as slaves?

(D)?
take just mittlewerke or the atlantic wall, how many reprisal murders were there for "sabotage"?

(F)?
Collective? so if for example Luxembourg as an occupied territory is forced to hand over 100,000 slaves is that not a collective penalty?

You're just asking more questions here. Supply some substance to support your previous statements.

[Aktungbby]

Enough already! it was a NAZI u-boot! One of the simple joys of argument, rhetoric and logic is to hang the OP with his own petard...so to speak. Both world wars were fought under the auspices of the intellectual philosophy of Von Clausewitz in his post-mortemly published opus ON WAR, now required reading at all US military academies. "War is not an independent phenomenon, but the continuation of politics by other means. Consequently, the main lines of every major strategic plan are largely political in nature, and their poitical character increases the more the plan applies to the entire campaign and to the whole state." The uboot course de guerre of both world wars was the only strategy worthy of the name for Germany in both of its world wars in terms of theory, materiel and global strategy. As such, any strategic implementation of the politics of the German state in WWII especially of the Kriegsmarine would have been indisputably NAZI to der führer, his principle miñion and successor Donitz, and every one of the all-volunteer, highly propagandized 'itchy necked' UBootwaffen, happily avoiding the consequences of the Eastern front and eating sumptuously off of suitably decorated NAZI crockery,- compared to rest of the shortchanged Third Reich. All parties understood they were vital and primary functionaries of the most productive (operation Monsun)offensives into the Pacific as an extension of Nazi and Axis might. Of the good brave Nazis on the U-boot in question, 23 survived as did the Kapitänleutnant Pich, who was a POW until 1947 and died at age 82 in 1997.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by areo16

And subsim is responsible for what is on subsim's frontpage, whether boss man wants to accept it or not.

Oh, I accept it, all right. And when news outlets refer to a U-boat as a "Nazi sub", that's how we will post it. Because that's what they have been called since the '40s. Deal with it.

You're just asking more questions here. Supply some substance to support your previous statements.

Oh dear oh dear, you are not very good at this are you
The substance is in the questions
Do you perhaps understand the legal concept set in Leipzig way back in '21?
It applies to that nice german who made peace at the end of the war, for all the time that he was a raving Nazi doing exactly the same job throughout the war that he held at the end of the war.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Yep, Yale is handy

Especially the part that quotes the man on the spot as saying it was solely about slave labor. Nice of you to ignore that part.

(A)?
where exactly did these civilian slaves come from?
Though of course that doesn't count the german slaves as they would be under the persecution murder and mistreatment on grounds of religion politics or ethnicity bit.

Was Speer charged with murder and mistreatment. If murder, he would have been executed. No, he was charged with transporting and using slave labor.

(C)?
How many POWs were used as slaves?

I thought we weren't talking about slave labor. Was Speer charged with anything else?

(D)?
take just mittlewerke or the atlantic wall, how many reprisal murders were there for "sabotage"?

Was Speer involved with any of that? Was he charged with any of that?

(F)?
Collective? so if for example Luxembourg as an occupied territory is forced to hand over 100,000 slaves is that not a collective penalty?

Did you miss the part where I said "I don't know"? You do like to have your little game, don't you? And you accuse other people of trolling.

As for (E)? well that started in Czechoslovakia and speers ministry carried on doing it throughout the war.

Sorry, but your word for anything is no longer acceptable. Citation needed.

If you want to get really into it on the depths on Nazi depravity how many of his Wehrwitschaftsfuhrers engaged in human experimentation in the concentration camps while working on Sheers ministries projects

I don't know. Why don't you tell me? And while your at it, reread what the man said about it being only about slave labor. That was all I said. You turned it into a major production. It seems to me that what you really like is kicking people whenever possible.

Especially the part that quotes the man on the spot as saying it was solely about slave labor. Nice of you to ignore that part.

I ignored nothing, yet you seem to be.
the Nazis were rather methodical bastards, since it was entirely about slave labour could you run through all their wonderful categories of slave labour?
Come back and reply when you understand why I used an example like mittlewerk, it is very simple.

Was Speer charged with murder and mistreatment.

Yes, its under the principle set in Leipzig.

If murder, he would have been executed.

Would he?
Lots of very nasty Nazi war criminals received very light jail terms, or even no jail at all.

I thought we weren't talking about slave labor.

Who said that?

Was Speer involved with any of that? Was he charged with any of that?

Entirely

Did you miss the part where I said "I don't know"? You do like to have your little game, don't you? And you accuse other people of trolling.

I missed nothing, and you appear to be having one of your moments again, strange definitions you use.

Sorry, but your word for anything is no longer acceptable. Citation needed.

Now you are trolling and attempting to be insulting
Please keep your emotions under control
The citation is in the link you provided, Avalon does contain a wealth of information.
So what plunder would be stolen under the "competent authority" of his particular ministry?

don't know. Why don't you tell me? And while your at it, reread what the man said about it being only about slave labor.

You mean where he said "entirely"?
Which of the nastier aspects of the rather nasty slave labour program are you unsure of?

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I ignored nothing, yet you seem to be.

Yet you say exactly nothing about the statement I showed.

the Nazis were rather methodical bastards, since it was entirely about slave labour could you run through all their wonderful categories of slave labour?

No, I can't. Why don't you tell me. And while you're at it, explain what Speer was charged with for each type.

Come back and reply when you understand why I used an example like mittlewerk, it is very simple.

Again you stoop to condescension. Why don't you explain it to me?

Yes, its under the principle set in Leipzig.

That sounds very general. Was Speer specifically charged with murder? If he was convicted, why wasn't he executed?

Would he?
Lots of very nasty Nazi war criminals received very light jail terms, or even no jail at all.

I don't know. It seems to me that he would be.

Who said that?

Your emphasis has been on "other counts". I've tried to show that, even according to someone in the know Slave Labor was the only real charge.

Entirely

Can you show specifically where? I've shown that his charges were quite limited. You've said a lot and shown nothing.

I missed nothing, and you appear to be having one of your moments again, strange definitions you use.

My charge is specific. You invariably do your best to condescend to your targets. You never provide facts, but tell people they should know what you claim to, and treat them like recalcitrant children.

Now you are trolling and attempting to be insulting

I said I didn't know. You tried to test me with more questions. That is indeed a game, and you play it very well.

Please keep your emotions under control

More condescension. My emotions are fine at the moment. I've just grown tired of your games.

The citation is in the link you provided, Avalon does contain a wealth of information.

So show it. Quote it. Don't just say it's there. If you're going to use it, it's your job to show it and explain it.

So what plunder would be stolen under the "competent authority" of his particular ministry?

Again you ask a question as of teacher to pupil. I don't know, and I don't see how it relates to what Speer was charged with.

You mean where he said "entirely"?

Yes. He did indeed say "entirely".

Which of the nastier aspects of the rather nasty slave labour program are you unsure of?

Speer was not charged with murder. He was not charged with anything else. Whatever the "aspects" you're talking about may be, they don't seem to have much to do with the question of the charges against him. According to the man on the scene the charges against him were relatively minor. I'm sure you're right about how bad things were, and Speer may indeed have been more involved than I think.

I made a simple statement to the other guy, partly in your support. You seem to take that as a cue to launch a full-on debate. I fail to understand why, unless you just like to feel superior to people by running them down. No, I'm not emotional about it, but I am very tired of it. You still persist in never showing facts, just wrestling with people, and you seem to enjoy doing it. It does look very much to me like a game.

[areo16]

Tribesman, when you get some downtime I'm gonna need you to fax over the evidence I requested. Um, yeah...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by areo16

Tribesman, when you get some downtime I'm gonna need you to fax over the evidence I requested. Um, yeah...

You might not want to be accusing other people of trolling when you post things like this.

Yet you say exactly nothing about the statement I showed.

Your statement was dealt with, unfortunately you didn't understand what you was quoting.
As Speer was being tried entirely on the work of his ministry then you need the evidence presented not just that line you quoted, all the evidence is on that website.
Including as an on topic bonus a nice little quarterly statistic on how many slaves were worked to death in the camps supplying slaves to the shipyard where the Nazi U-boat in question was constructed.

No, I can't. Why don't you tell me. And while you're at it, explain what Speer was charged with for each type.

Why not read it?
After all if Speer personally requests in writing that Himmler sends him 100,000 Hungarian jews as slaves for the underground arms and aircraft factories that Hitler wanted built then Speer is personally guilty both in their deportation and eventual deaths.
Vernichten durch arbeit is the particular category of slave labour Speer facilitated there.

Again you stoop to condescension. Why don't you explain it to me?

Its a well known example, does it need explaination?

That sounds very general.

Actually its very specific, Leipzig is responsibility of command.

Was Speer specifically charged with murder? If he was convicted, why wasn't he executed?

The charges were general, not all the crimes.
As for execution, most of judgements made little sense and had no bearing on the severity of the crimes.

I don't know. It seems to me that he would be.

It seems to me that all of the doctors who murdered prisoners in medical experiments at the concentration camps would be deserving of the highest penalty the courts could impose...it didn't happen though.

Your emphasis has been on "other counts". I've tried to show that, even according to someone in the know Slave Labor was the only real charge.

Slave labour covered such a wide range of crimes against humanity and war crimes, its the whole scope of the industry which he ran.

Can you show specifically where? I've shown that his charges were quite limited. You've said a lot and shown nothing.

Sorry, but you havn't, you need to view the evidence presented at the trial to understand the extent of what he was charged with in the "entirely" of the slave labour program he ran.

My charge is specific. You invariably do your best to condescend to your targets. You never provide facts, but tell people they should know what you claim to, and treat them like recalcitrant children.

Sorry but there have been plenty of facts presented, feel free to check them.

I said I didn't know. You tried to test me with more questions. That is indeed a game, and you play it very well.

Yes questions, the economic plunder policy was first implemented in Austria, then improved for the Sudetanland before being polished for Czechoslovakia, by the time of Poland it was well worked out and by Russia it was a well oiled official operation of looting and plunder worked in co-operation by the Nazi ministries covering industry, agriculture, finance and all three branches of the Nazi military.
Its all on your link.

Yes. He did indeed say "entirely".

So entirely it is then.
I suppose that must also include his boasting to the Gauliters about personally sending 10,000 POWs as slave labour to the arms factories.

Speer was not charged with murder. He was not charged with anything else. Whatever the "aspects" you're talking about may be, they don't seem to have much to do with the question of the charges against him.

The charges against him?

According to the man on the scene the charges against him were relatively minor.

I wouldn't call crimes against humanity and war crimes minor.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

You might not want to be accusing other people of trolling when you post things like this.

Mr. Steve,

I've looked at all of my posts and cannot find any post that indicates that I called someone a troll, or said they were trolling. It's been the other way around, in all cases. I've been called the troll.

[areo16]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Deal with it.

Well.... I don't have to, actually.

Please delete my account. I've seen all I've needed to see.

[kranz]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Because that's what they have been called since the '40s.

we both know that it isn't true.
this thread has already suffered from quite a few hilariously bad attempts to justify it - yet each and every failed.
if the substitution was true in every case, the distribution between 'German' and 'Nazi' would be like 50-50. But it's not. (at least in historical books - popular science magazines which seek for 'drama' are excluded)
If you check in the books, you won't learn about Nazi MG-42, Nazi Tiger, Nazi soldiers, Nazi uboats.
Nazi is a correct term in a specific context and it does appear either in this ideological context or might appear anywhere in a newspaper article - and this was explained by HB in post 3/4 or 5.
However, this is very unusual usage of this substitution - done for a purpose.
Same goes with 'communist' and 'soviet'.

Sure the OP overreacted to the title but then again some of the posters here went berserk teaching him false history.

[Sailor Steve]

A PUBLIC APOLOGY TO TRIBESMAN

Tribesman PMed me with some information about himself - how long he has been studying the subject of the Nuremburg trials, and how there is so much information that he could tie up an entire page with links if he so chose. While I still hold some of opinions about the side-discussion we started, I feel it's only fair to acknowledge his scholarship on this, and to say I'm sorry if I was going on having read a tiny fraction of the available material.

'Sailor Steve' Bradfield

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by areo16

Mr. Steve,

I've looked at all of my posts and cannot find any post that indicates that I called someone a troll, or said they were trolling. It's been the other way around, in all cases. I've been called the troll.

Fair enough. It looks like I owe you an apology too.