Pastor weighing plans to burn Qurans amid U.S. warnings - Page 10

Skybird · 09-10-10, 04:17 AM

Zachstar, try harder to separate your emotions from your intellect. You raise claims, but lack any references at their legal fundament. And in your country, still American laws are the fundament of the jurisdiction - not just moral outrage. That's what makes a state basing on law and order different from a theocracy.

If there would be a legal basis to stop the Quran burning by the use of US laws, everybody can safely assume that Muslim organisations by now already would have made use of them. That nobody has, is almost evidence that there are no such laws.

I don't know this pastor, and I do not care much for him - after all he is a pastor. But I see the effect that he is causing, I will not complain about this effect, and that effect is is two-fold:

1. he demonstrates the hilarious hypersensitivity and the both supremacist and narcissistic self-view of an always offended, always rightously arguing Muslim world that illustrates involuntarily and maybe even unaware how very much stuck in medieval mind-patterns it is, when this mere gesture in one small american village by this pastor makes the Ummah go into overdrive mode around the planet (once again). He also makes the West demonstrating its sick, weak, self-rejecting attitude of endlessly tolerating a given behavior if it is done by them in offence to us, but showing symptoms of the stockholm syndrom and uniting with the other if one of "us" is setting up an offence to them. This kind of weakness and constant denying of our own pride is something that makes me both sad and outraged.

2. he enforces an unpopular debate onto the US society, with the side-effect of pushing the GZ mosque higher up in the hierarchy of public debates. And not to be mistaken, the building of a monument at the scene of the crime, in the name of the ideology that motivated mass murder and justifies said mass murder in order to spread it's seed and it's message of terror, is much bigger an offence and a provoking behavior - calculated in cold blood - than is the burning of a book in the American countryside. The stabbing of Cgrisztian priests and the assassination of christian nuns in muslim countries is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The discrmination of a whole sub-community in Muslim countries, is much bigger a crime. Wars of annihilation and expulsion, genocides against Chrstian tribes and people in Africa that saw hundreds of thpusands being massacred in the past 15 years, committed by islamic armies and militias with backing of Muslims governments, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. More than 15 thousand civilians killed by Muslim bomb attacks in the world in the past 9 years, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The governments of muslim countires not condemning these crimes and slaughterings and genicides with all detemrination and stopping to fund the animals committing it, even paying nthem and supoorting them - that is much bigger an offence to all civilised mankind than the burning of the quran could ever be.

the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity.

As I said some days ago, I neither consider the burning event as more than just a symbol (so I am not much interested in it), nor do I see why it is such a big issue. All what the pastor is doing, is holding a mirror up and showing islam what it's face is looking like. He does to them as they do to us all the time on incredibly bigger, more decisive scales.

On a side-note, if you are fluent in german language, the following interview. The author, Abdel-Samad, is an Egyptian-German muslim I hold in high esteem, a smart intellectual and biting critic of islam, with a high academic profile in germany, he teaches politology and works at two other universities in Germany in oriental and Jewish culture (!) studies. He's member of a government-initiated discussion platform on the matters of Islam and integration issues. He travels under police protection and although his life is in danger due to a ftawa calling for his assassination (what? another Muslim being critical of real islam and for that needing to fear of his life...??) he will travel to egypt soon to introduce his book there, too - because he managed to get it published in arabic, too, which seems to be kind of a sensation to me. I met him by chance some years ago, we chatted for five minutes or so, and found ourselves to be sharing a lot of common ground. It was a public event in a book shop - so maybe it was not for random chance alone.

http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/a...ntergehen.html

I hold him in high esteem, although I disagree with his thesis in this book, if it gets summarised correctly in the interview. His thesis is that the islamic culture has exceeded it'S banking account and thus will break apart and decline, due to it'S hollowness and meaninglessness in intellectual capacity to which it has degenerated, and that this is somewhat self-inflicted and self-deserved, since it is too narcissistic, too much lying about its own nature, and is not potent to deal with the future challenges of declining resources, whereas islam has educated people only to blind obedience to state authority and tyrannic rulers at the top (the only purpose of islamic doctrine, if you ask me: prime example illustrating this: Muhammad himself). His original words: "the islamic house stinks." This will make the Islamic societies fall, causing the biggest mass movement of a people to europe in all history. The latter is the reason why you shall not applaud the prospect of the first - getting millions and millions more of migrants who are not only unwilling but also are unable to integrate becasue they lack the cultural and educational precondition to adapt and to integrate, obviously will bring Europe into a mess, too.

I disagree with him on this, thinking that misery makes people pray and Islam needs the lacking education and social misery of the crowds and masses - the more poverty and existential misery there is, the more radical relgious ideas will fall on fertile ground. The effect of this - will be the same like in Abdel-Samad'S thesis, so the diference in opinion what causes it, is somewhat secondary only in importance. The ruling clans of the rich oil-producers have started to infiltrate Western key structures and corporations of economy and insutry anyway, by buying them completely or shares that guarantee them decisive influence over them. but maybe this separation between the elites and the masses is what Abdel-Samad means when pointing at the fall of islamic societies and their breaking-apart. The book is to be published soon.

I also would say that I think real islam cannot be reformed due to it's "monocockpit" structure. abdel-Samad argues for massive chnages in islam, and leaving the medieval and theologic ballast behind - which leaves the querstion if what then is left of islam indeed can be called islam anymore with any justification by the term'S historic meaning and reference. again, we seem to differ over this, but in the end find ourselves to be wanting the same thing nevertheless.

If oyu ever have the chance to listen to a course he gives, or a public speech, go there. I found him to be a very smart and very kind man, determined and well thought-out in argument, but always calm and polite.

P.S:
What the rave is all about:

source: Tagesspiegel

Zachstar · 09-10-10, 06:19 AM

Quote:

the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity.

Take your bigotry and take a Hike Skybird. I thought you would have learned from your history what bigotry does to people. Too bad.

JU_88 · 09-10-10, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

P.S:
What the rave is all about:

source: Tagesspiegel

No, not to rational people it isn't, to hysterical people maybe....
But to most its about the fact that two wrongs dont make a right,
Simple as that.
Its offensive to muslims yes, but in the grand sceme of things - its pebble in a pool of rocks.
To your islamic fundementalist, it only confirms what they already believe.

Skybird · 09-10-10, 06:22 AM

Now we now - it'S all Israel's guilt!

http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=187647

Phoney hypocrites - though with a VERY strong sense of perceiving and using good opportunities.

Fundamentalist or not - you have to give it to the pastor that with extremely little effort he managed to make the Western and the oriental world demonstrating what a mental asylum full of stupid idiots it is.

MH · 09-10-10, 06:37 AM

So bottom line is-dont offend muslims because its dangerus.
Let them do what they please becase its within their rights.
Well done...Mr Obama.

Skybird · 09-10-10, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zachstar

Take your bigotry and take a Hike Skybird. I thought you would have learned from your history what bigotry does to people. Too bad.

The good thing in making people not expecting any better niveau from you is that you can never disappoint them. Keep on diggin, dude.

JU_88 · 09-10-10, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MH

So bottom line is-dont offend muslims because its dangerus.
Let them do what they please becase its within their rights.
Well done...Mr Obama.

Wrong, (in this particular case) you dont offend them because there is no need to.
if a chinese guy steals your wallet, you dont go up to every chinese guy you see and punch him in the face.
It called 'common sense', although these days it is becoming less and less 'common'

As I said before, if someone is against the burnings out of fear of reprisals alone, then they are hysterical.
Living in fear of terrorism is something I might undstand if you live somewhere like Isreal, but not in the USA and Western Europe, if you gonna be that afraid of terrorism, then how do you deal with the prospect of becoming a victim of; a road traffic accident, or cancer, or domestic violent crime etc.
All these things are about million times more likley to hurt/kill you than any terrorist.

I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.

AVGWarhawk · 09-10-10, 08:42 AM

Quote:

I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.

These colors are still used in the military. But yes, telling the public everyday was useless at best.

krashkart · 09-10-10, 08:46 AM

What gets me is that the Reverend T.J. wants to burn the books on the ninth anniversary of 9/11. Gosh, what a swell idea, Reverend! Honor the fallen by committing a hateful, paranoid act.

America is better than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.

Dude, I got so sick of seeing that threat meter. Now that I think about it, I never noticed that it was gone. Iiiinteresting.

STEED · 09-10-10, 09:00 AM

Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it.

Gerald · 09-10-10, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it.

krashkart · 09-10-10, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it.

I tried but IrfanView only resizes images.... and I'd hate to think of what would happen to the milking machine.

tater · 09-10-10, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zachstar

He will be charged if he does it regardless of his terrorist status. You don't get to violate fire laws to express free speech. You don't get to injure others to express free speech.

That argument does not fly. There is no free speech issues involved here. He does not have the RIGHT to burn the Koran or anything for that matter regardless of how many cry.

BS.

Burning a book, ANY book is not yelling fire. It's political expression, and is the very point of the 1st Amendment. We can all agree he's an idiot, we can all think it's impolite, but thinking it is illegal is idiotic. Anyone against his right to burn a book is un-american, plain and simple. Guess what, the same goes for the flag, or the Bible---or the right to build a church/temple/mosque.

You clearly lack any understanding of what the Bill of Rights protects us from. It's there to protect us from WASHINGTON, not from ourselves.

JU_88 · 09-10-10, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krashkart

What gets me is that the Reverend T.J. wants to burn the books on the ninth anniversary of 9/11. Gosh, what a swell idea, Reverend! Honor the fallen by committing a hateful, paranoid act.

America is better than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

BS.

Burning a book, ANY book is not yelling fire. It's political expression, and is the very point of the 1st Amendment. We can all agree he's an idiot, we can all think it's impolite, but thinking it is illegal is idiotic. Anyone against his right to burn a book is unamerican, plain and simple. Guess what, the same goes for the flag, or the Bible.

QFT (Both of you)

Gerald · 09-10-10, 09:45 AM

09-10-10, 04:17 AM	#136
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,663 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Zachstar, try harder to separate your emotions from your intellect. You raise claims, but lack any references at their legal fundament. And in your country, still American laws are the fundament of the jurisdiction - not just moral outrage. That's what makes a state basing on law and order different from a theocracy. If there would be a legal basis to stop the Quran burning by the use of US laws, everybody can safely assume that Muslim organisations by now already would have made use of them. That nobody has, is almost evidence that there are no such laws. I don't know this pastor, and I do not care much for him - after all he is a pastor. But I see the effect that he is causing, I will not complain about this effect, and that effect is is two-fold: 1. he demonstrates the hilarious hypersensitivity and the both supremacist and narcissistic self-view of an always offended, always rightously arguing Muslim world that illustrates involuntarily and maybe even unaware how very much stuck in medieval mind-patterns it is, when this mere gesture in one small american village by this pastor makes the Ummah go into overdrive mode around the planet (once again). He also makes the West demonstrating its sick, weak, self-rejecting attitude of endlessly tolerating a given behavior if it is done by them in offence to us, but showing symptoms of the stockholm syndrom and uniting with the other if one of "us" is setting up an offence to them. This kind of weakness and constant denying of our own pride is something that makes me both sad and outraged. 2. he enforces an unpopular debate onto the US society, with the side-effect of pushing the GZ mosque higher up in the hierarchy of public debates. And not to be mistaken, the building of a monument at the scene of the crime, in the name of the ideology that motivated mass murder and justifies said mass murder in order to spread it's seed and it's message of terror, is much bigger an offence and a provoking behavior - calculated in cold blood - than is the burning of a book in the American countryside. The stabbing of Cgrisztian priests and the assassination of christian nuns in muslim countries is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The discrmination of a whole sub-community in Muslim countries, is much bigger a crime. Wars of annihilation and expulsion, genocides against Chrstian tribes and people in Africa that saw hundreds of thpusands being massacred in the past 15 years, committed by islamic armies and militias with backing of Muslims governments, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. More than 15 thousand civilians killed by Muslim bomb attacks in the world in the past 9 years, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The governments of muslim countires not condemning these crimes and slaughterings and genicides with all detemrination and stopping to fund the animals committing it, even paying nthem and supoorting them - that is much bigger an offence to all civilised mankind than the burning of the quran could ever be. the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity. As I said some days ago, I neither consider the burning event as more than just a symbol (so I am not much interested in it), nor do I see why it is such a big issue. All what the pastor is doing, is holding a mirror up and showing islam what it's face is looking like. He does to them as they do to us all the time on incredibly bigger, more decisive scales. On a side-note, if you are fluent in german language, the following interview. The author, Abdel-Samad, is an Egyptian-German muslim I hold in high esteem, a smart intellectual and biting critic of islam, with a high academic profile in germany, he teaches politology and works at two other universities in Germany in oriental and Jewish culture (!) studies. He's member of a government-initiated discussion platform on the matters of Islam and integration issues. He travels under police protection and although his life is in danger due to a ftawa calling for his assassination (what? another Muslim being critical of real islam and for that needing to fear of his life...??) he will travel to egypt soon to introduce his book there, too - because he managed to get it published in arabic, too, which seems to be kind of a sensation to me. I met him by chance some years ago, we chatted for five minutes or so, and found ourselves to be sharing a lot of common ground. It was a public event in a book shop - so maybe it was not for random chance alone. http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/a...ntergehen.html I hold him in high esteem, although I disagree with his thesis in this book, if it gets summarised correctly in the interview. His thesis is that the islamic culture has exceeded it'S banking account and thus will break apart and decline, due to it'S hollowness and meaninglessness in intellectual capacity to which it has degenerated, and that this is somewhat self-inflicted and self-deserved, since it is too narcissistic, too much lying about its own nature, and is not potent to deal with the future challenges of declining resources, whereas islam has educated people only to blind obedience to state authority and tyrannic rulers at the top (the only purpose of islamic doctrine, if you ask me: prime example illustrating this: Muhammad himself). His original words: "the islamic house stinks." This will make the Islamic societies fall, causing the biggest mass movement of a people to europe in all history. The latter is the reason why you shall not applaud the prospect of the first - getting millions and millions more of migrants who are not only unwilling but also are unable to integrate becasue they lack the cultural and educational precondition to adapt and to integrate, obviously will bring Europe into a mess, too. I disagree with him on this, thinking that misery makes people pray and Islam needs the lacking education and social misery of the crowds and masses - the more poverty and existential misery there is, the more radical relgious ideas will fall on fertile ground. The effect of this - will be the same like in Abdel-Samad'S thesis, so the diference in opinion what causes it, is somewhat secondary only in importance. The ruling clans of the rich oil-producers have started to infiltrate Western key structures and corporations of economy and insutry anyway, by buying them completely or shares that guarantee them decisive influence over them. but maybe this separation between the elites and the masses is what Abdel-Samad means when pointing at the fall of islamic societies and their breaking-apart. The book is to be published soon. I also would say that I think real islam cannot be reformed due to it's "monocockpit" structure. abdel-Samad argues for massive chnages in islam, and leaving the medieval and theologic ballast behind - which leaves the querstion if what then is left of islam indeed can be called islam anymore with any justification by the term'S historic meaning and reference. again, we seem to differ over this, but in the end find ourselves to be wanting the same thing nevertheless. If oyu ever have the chance to listen to a course he gives, or a public speech, go there. I found him to be a very smart and very kind man, determined and well thought-out in argument, but always calm and polite. P.S: What the rave is all about: source: Tagesspiegel __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 09-10-10 at 05:20 AM.

09-10-10, 06:22 AM	#139
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,663 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Now we now - it'S all Israel's guilt! http://www.jpost.com/International/A...aspx?id=187647 Phoney hypocrites - though with a VERY strong sense of perceiving and using good opportunities. Fundamentalist or not - you have to give it to the pastor that with extremely little effort he managed to make the Western and the oriental world demonstrating what a mental asylum full of stupid idiots it is. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-10-10, 09:00 AM	#145
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

09-10-10, 09:45 AM	#150
Gerald SUBSIM Newsman Join Date: May 2008 Location: Close to sea Posts: 24,254 Downloads: 553 Uploads: 0	Holy Bible vs Quran __________________ Nothing in life is to be feard,it is only to be understood. Marie Curie

09-10-10, 06:37 AM	#140
MH Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3,184 Downloads: 248 Uploads: 0	So bottom line is-dont offend muslims because its dangerus. Let them do what they please becase its within their rights. Well done...Mr Obama.