Do we really want to ruin this forum with constant DRM and SH5 trashing?

[ENtek-IO]

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

WOw , is it possible that you just pulled a nation card out of your sleeve?

Bad style imho

[KL-alfman]

Originally Posted by ENtek-IO

WOw , is it possible that you just pulled a nation card out of your sleeve?

Bad style imho

no worries, mate.
this post disqualifies by itself.
and the poster too.

[Stealth Hunter]

I lol'd, Rat.

[mcarlsonus]

Seeing Baron vonTorpitz post earlier in this thread reminded me I started a post respectfully disagreeing with him in, "All We Are Saying..." and then thought, "hmmmm...this thread's tedious enough!" - and canned the idea (but I do STILL think that when the smoke clears, PC owners will be relegated to playing intentionally bandwidth-limited Scrabble, Trivial Pursuit, Wheel of Fortune, etc., on free or ad-supported sites and console owners'll get all the good stuff!)

"we must silence the opposition" is NOT an Alinsky quote! "Nisgeis" is right! Compliments of Bernard, here is an actual Alinsky quote: “Last guys don't finish nice.”

As far as, "opposition," I will not be silenced and remain...yr obdnt svnt...

[John Channing]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

>>"Do me a favor? Hop on over to the Falcon 4 forums and post that."

Why would I bother? It would be the cyber-equivalent of standing on the bowsprit at Flank Speed and relieving my bladder. Not only was the falcon series produced by an independant, private, and dedicated group of programmers (Specrtun Holobyte), but Falcon 4 is what it is now due only to years of extensive modding. Unless you (or they) expect a brand new F16 block c simulator that is more accurate...(which would be nearly impossible to accomplish for even the most heavily-funded studio)...it just ain't gonna happen for a while, as the original fits the current market quite nicely in it's current state. On the other hand, unless it IS that F16 alone that you are wishing for, LockOn was a very high-quality release that also had a high-fidelity model yet a different interpretation of how to present it. DCS:Black Shark is far, far beyond the fidelity and accuracy of any version of Falcon 4, and the upcoming DCS:A-10 (based on the original LOMAC) is no less stunning and again far beyond anything that came before. Someday, the Falcon forums can look forward to a new F16-only study simulation if that is what they want, but they will be waiting until the right developer comes along and the market can support it. It will happen, but not if people continue to to support half-finished arcade games.

>>"And if you think that Dangerous Waters was a successor to the Harpoon Series then you never played Harpoon"

If you are waiting for a direct, sequential replacement for a title, then you will never get one. Any independent developer is going to make their own interpretation of that they want to present. It would be foolish and juvenile to try to make a direct successor to any other developers' prior program. That is like making a paper mache statue of an old girlfriend, instead of just finding a new girlfriend. Also, Dangerous Waters was made by the same folks who made Fleet Command and is a newer title, which is why I chose it instead.

>>"every time I see somone trot that "independant producers will fill the void" line out I intend to challenge them to supply just one name. Just one"

Combat Mission was an independant developers answer to Microsoft's Close Combat series. Combat Mission also eventually gave rise to the Theatre of War series. I seriously doubt that anyone who has played Theatre of War:Kursk 1943 would ever again even consider going back to Microsoft Close Combat in any form.

Have patience, grasshopper...Computer Gaming is still in it's infancy, for better or for worse.

So, Great Master, allow me if you will to ask again the part of the question that your magnificent revelations seemed to overlook.

Where are the independent Sub-sim producers? What is the name?

Maybe they are all having a drink with East? Or Jamie? Or Carl?

JCC

[Buddahaid]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

>>"Where's Falcon 5?"

It's called "Lock-on: Modern Air Combat", "Flaming Cliffs", and now "DCS: Black Shark".

>>"Where's Harpoon 4?

"Dangerous Waters" likely filled that position, although the games genre is even more limited than that for Silent Hunter. Unfortunately, many who love submarine games just can't seem to get into modern submarine warfare due to it's need for super stealth and dependance on fire-and-forget weapons. It takes a very, very unique kind of sub-simmer to enjoy a game where there are no deck guns and if you wish to survive for any length of time you should avoid ever using your periscope. To me, following wire-mesh seafloor contours was fun for a while, as was hearing whales on the hydrophones...but spending my entire war career hiding under multiple thermal layers and staring endlessly at electronic readouts and nothing else was just too tedious. Someday, another publisher may create a new modern-era subsim...but if so it will likely be a very independent team of niche developers who I am sure will do a great job, but for a very limited audience.



Other examples of games that should not exist according to your logic are "T-34 vs Tiger", "Steel Fury", "Jutland" and "Distant Guns", "Theatre of War" (the whole series), "Rise of Flight", "PT Boats: Knights of the Sea", "Storm of War: Battle of Britain" (which, interestingly, has been produced independently of Ubisoft who published the prior IL-2 series), "R-Factor", "Pacific Storm", and even "ARMA II" (developed independently after Codemasters took over control of the now-failed Operation Flashpoint 2).

MOST of the above are great games, written by dedicated teams of enthusiast gamers...NOT mega-publishers. The simple truth is that as long as there is a dedicated fan base that is large enough for which to develop a commercial title...there WILL be developers who will meet that demand. Sometimes those titles will also end up being the best ever developed, as can be evidenced by some of the titles listed above.


Do not sell the independent developer short. Often times, it is they who really drive the art that is our obsession.
.

"Rise of Flight" required a constant internet connection, and still does for full content. They also charge for add on aircraft making this sim 2-3 times as expensive as SH5.

What they do right is listen to the users and fix bugs etc.


EDIT: "Jutland" and "Distant Guns" have also been bashed by some and were more expensive.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by ENtek-IO

WOw , is it possible that you just pulled a nation card out of your sleeve?

Bad style imho

you started the personal attack mate, that type of behavior is frowned upon here.

of course, if trolling is all you bring to the discussion, it won't be much of a fight. It does not look like you are able to stitch together a coherent argument.

[Dutch]

SH3 and SH4 with O:M are more fun to me than anything I have heard about SH5.

Why in 3 and 4 you have a dynamic campaign, no matter how much to try and cover it 5 does not. Since when did U-boats specifically hunt Warships? That goes against the entire German doctrine during the War in the Atlantic. So because you have to "hunt" warships, you have to "ignore" convoys. Defeats the whole purpose if you ask me.

In 3 and 4 you fight from 39-45 not 43 as in 5. That is just screaming for them to make you buy a DLC to finish the war "game". That is absolutely pitiful.

The only thing 5 has "going" for it is the walking around in FPS like Call of Duty. About which I have heard that after a few times it gets to be as much fun as pulling teeth.

Lastly 5 as apparent bugs and issues all of which break the apparent immersion of the feature I previously talked about, so it in and of itself is almost a mute point.

Pointing out all of those things wrong with 5 I didn't even mention DRM. I am not spending any money on something that hurts the legitimate paying customer more than the pirates.

Once UBI or the pirates patch out DRM and I stumble across it in the $10 bargain bin I might buy it. Till then I will lurk the forums.

[theluckyone17]

The customer goes to the train station.

He addresses a man standing behind a desk marked "Complaints".

C: I wish to complain, British-Railways Person.

Attendant: I DON'T HAVE TO DO THIS JOB, YOU KNOW!!!

C: I beg your pardon...?

A: I'm a qualified brain surgeon! I only do this job because I like being my own boss!

C: Excuse me, this is irrelevant, isn't it?

A: Yeah, well it's not easy to pad these python files out to 200 lines, you know.

C: Well, I wish to complain. I got on the Bolton train and found myself deposited here in Ipswitch.

A: No, this is Bolton.

C: (to the camera) The pet shop man's brother was lying!!

A: Can't blame British Rail for that.

C: In that case, I shall return to the pet shop!

It ain't got a car in it, but it's got a train. Is that close enough? Not sure I'd want a car in my SH5 discussion... be too likely that I'd think about SH5 the next time I drive down the highway. That wouldn't be good... next thing you know, I'd be wanting to put a torpedo into that fellow that cut me off

[ENtek-IO]

"you started the personal attack mate, that type of behavior is frowned upon here. "

When? You mean telling you to look in the mirror once in a while responding to a post like yours ,is a personal attack?,..... Well if you say so,...!



"of course, if trolling is all you bring to the discussion, it won't be much of a fight. It does not look like you are able to stitch together a coherent argument. "

ahem,.. OK Oh, and don't feel personal attacked..hmmpf.

[vonTorpitz]

Now now kids, play nice.

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by Buddahaid

"Rise of Flight" required a constant internet connection, and still does for full content. They also charge for add on aircraft making this sim 2-3 times as expensive as SH5.

What they do right is listen to the users and fix bugs etc.


EDIT: "Jutland" and "Distant Guns" have also been bashed by some and were more expensive.

I was simply listing examples of quality software produced by small, independent publishers. I bought Rise of Flight the day it was released both to support the developer as well as show support for the genre, but never installed it specifically due to the DRM (which I think has been softened since then, so someday maybe I will give it a go).

As for Distant Guns and Jutland, there will always be some who bash virtually any game, regardless of the developer. I have some issues with Storm Eagle Studios as well ...for things such as their pricing structure, the lack of any hard goods (download only), and their abuse of my e-mail trust ( they are one of my biggest e-mail spammers with their constant "limited time sale!" spams). Nonetheless, I applaud the efforts of their coding and creativity in producing non-mainstream titles. The point remains that they are an independent producer/publisher who is doing well with a niche market.

Rise of Flight is a good example, though, of how patience can pay off. Prior to it's release there had not been a commercially published WWI flight sim for over a decade (the last one that I can think of is Red Baron 3D), but when the market was ready, an independant publisher stepped up and met the need. They also did this while Over Flanders Field was a free mod to CFS, and a darn good sim at that...so they took a double chance, and it appears that they have done well with it.

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by ENtek-IO

When? You mean telling you to look in the mirror once in a while responding to a post like yours ,is a personal attack?,..... Well if you say so,...!




ahem,.. OK Oh, and don't feel personal attacked..hmmpf.

apology accepted

and I have the greatest respect for the German people, notwithstanding my juvenile attempt at humour. Humble apologies all around if anyone was offended by the cartoon... (although it was funny )


as is this one (might as well get everyone on my back ):

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by severniae

Ladies and Gentleman,

I must say that to be honest I'm getting a rather a lot fed up of constantly seeing threads full of people having constant arguments, or moaning about Silent Hunter 5.

I would like to petition the moderators of this forum, to lock down any more 'moan' topics and put the argument to rest permanently, or at least create just one thread for people to continue the discussion in a gentlemanly fashion and stop littering the forum with threads that seem to always turn into a pro/anti DRM/SH5 argument.

I feel that this forum is becoming more than a little ruined by the constant bickering about SH5, its DRM etc...

Its getting a little childish seeing people moaning at others because they bought SH5, and also seeing the people who bought it moaning at the people who won't because of the DRM, or other issues. We now know your feelings, whatever they are! Is there any need to keep going on about it? Why become so animated about the whole thing? If people have a problem, could they not just submit their complaint in writing to Ubisoft and have done with it?

We all know about the issues SH5 has, some people can get past that and get on with enjoying the game, others choose not to. That is fine! But can we, please, finally get past that and give it a rest. Its turning a really good forum that I want to be a part of into a flame-bin!

Many thanks,

Sev.

Sev, you make very good points. It's pretty sad when people who declare they have zero interest in a game take trolling to a whole new level. I'll never understand why some people will lurk in a forum for a game they do not have and wait for opportunities to make a post that essentially negative. Over and over.

I have gotten a lot of PMs and email from people who feel the same as you. People who are getting some enjoyment out of a flawed game are getting sick of trolls and griefers.


However, what can we do about it? It's pretty hard to weed out people who post simply to add more grief to an already miserable situation. You can place them on your ignore list. You can report them if they are topic spamming--this is a forum for SH5, not DRM philosphies or game flaming-- and a moderator can roll their post into an existing grief thread. If they get enough complaints against them, we can deny their access to this forum. Any other ideas are welcome.


Oh, I know, someone is going to hate on me over this, but before you do, think about what we are trying to do here: run a nice, relaxed place for reasonable people to talk about submarine games. People who do not like SH5 should frequent the SH3 or Sh4 forums, whatever game is interesting to you. I say this, not out of any malice, not at all. Just think about what you are doing to this forum.

Come on, man.

[vonTorpitz]

I wholeheartedly agree Neal. Its all rather counterproductive.