US fleet boats - best frontline sub of ww2?

[jazzabilly]

I happen to think that the Balao was a wonderful machine ~ if the sim is accurate, of course. I have to do some reading on the subject, which is a little weak. I much prefer it to the VIIc that I used to drive (mostly) in 3. The Battle of The Atlantic, I know very well. The Pacific, not so much.

The combination of speed, maneuverability and the EW capabilities of this boat make it my best sub pick. I don't know anything about the Tench class, though I imagine it was an improvement.

It's hard to say how differently the USN subs would have fared had the IJN had a more coherent and capable ASW force. They were certainly behind the game technologically speaking. An interesting "what if" would equip the Japanese with 10cm radar, Hedgehog and Squid DC mortars, and more capable ASW crews.

The Japanese also had no leader on par with Sir Max Horton, so the leadership wasn't there either.

As far as I can recall, it wasn't until after the war that most nations took ASW seriously, and career officers weren't normally drawn to the study of it.

[Torplexed]

I've always felt part of what made the submarine commerce war in the Atlantic and Pacific so different was that Germany and Great Britain had a huge rehearsal called World War One. Between Donitz's working on his wolfpack theories and British research into Asdic, radar, etc, they put a lot of thought and effort into it during the interwar period.

For some reason the knowledge from this bitter struggle never really caught on elsewhere. The US adapted U-Boat technology after WWI, but meandered through a lot of mediocre designs before very fortuitously coming up with the fleet boat in the late 30s, which by it's name was meant to operate with the fleet but turned out to be a fine independent machine. The US also struggled with very unrealistic prewar training and untested torpedo technology.

The Japanese really dropped the ball on their end, however. Being an island nation they really should have paid close attention to the British experience in the Great War. However, having built a navy and a mentality which emphasized the decisive battle and all things offensive it would have taken a major cultural shift for them to have done otherwise.

The US by dint of it's huge industrial capacity and it's alliance with Britain and her superb radar technology was able to overcome it's early mistakes in the misuse of it's submarines. For Japan, it was far too late by 1944 to have switched over to building cheap, dedicated escorts and radar-equipped ASW aircraft. At the time they were most needed their resources were already stretched to the breaking point. Prewar, in lieu of building the white elephant superbattleship Yamato they probably could have constructed 100 Kaikoban frigates. Hindsight is 20/20.

All that being said the fleet boats were probably the finest submarine for the environment and opponent which they were deployed against. Comparing submarines of different nationalities in WW2 is a bit like comparing apples and oranges. Unlike tanks and planes, submarines don't fight each other. They fight the other side's ASW system.

[AVGWarhawk]

Tench Class was basically the same in design as the others but it was the thick outer hull that separated it from the others. Dive a bit deeper. Take a bit more beating from DC.

[Red Lord of Chaos]

Japanese intrest in British naval technology and strategy was good upto the start of the War, indeed possibly too good, the Attack on Pearl Harbour was a copy of the British raid on Taranto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Red Lord of Chaos

Japanese intrest in British naval technology and strategy was good upto the start of the War, indeed possibly too good, the Attack on Pearl Harbour was a copy of the British raid on Taranto. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Taranto

That's because the Japanese obsession with battle came at the expense of trade defense. Japan went to war with six large carriers and an excellent fleet air arm, but only four purpose-built escorts in service, and none of these had sonar (Shumushu class). None of the 14 members of the Type A Etorofu class were within two months of being laid down. They came fifth in the shipbuilding priority list. (i.e. aircraft carriers, submarines, destroyers, minesweepers, escorts) Compare this with the British Flower class frigates were by the end of January 1940, a total of 116 ships were building or on order.

[Rockin Robbins]

Just quickly without reference to any books, the American submarine had six forward and four aft torpedo tubes and carried more torpedoes to battle than any German submarine. Serving good food and having air conditioning made the men aboard a much more efficient fighting machine. They had longer range and were faster both on the surface and submerged than any German submarine that saw combat during the war.

Also, the power setup was much more advanced with the diesels used only to produce electricity for the electric motors, which were the only motors connected to the propellor shafts and to charge the batteries. Four engines vs. only two for the German submarines meant much more flexibility in power/battery charging configurations. The American TDC's position keeper was a huge step forward from the German TDC, allowing the American sub to shoot entirely blind from any depth as long as their targeting solution was valid.

And finally, the deal clencher that made the American submarine undeniably superior to ANY German submarine, a great and dependable radar.

The Germans made the mistake of going forward with WWI designs. The American subs took it to the next level. There was no comparison in quality.