about the real fleet boat mod...

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by tater

No, because they likely didn't fire that way from a rolling, pitching submarine deck.

"Rapid fire" is a relative thing. Since both the sub and target are potentially moving, the fire must be constantly corrected unless they are steaming parallel. That means waiting for the shell to splash (or hit). At some of the longer ranges, the flight time is comparable to the best ROF (spec) time to ready the gun for the next round. If a sub was firing at extreme range, observing the shot could dominate the ROF.

What the logs show is a start time, a stop time, number of rounds fired/hit. Again, do a few experiments. Heck, use the stock guns and time yourself to whatever you think a realistic ROF is.

If it doesn't take you 20-30 minutes to sink a small frieghter (maybe a tug or somethign similarly "coastal frieghter" in size --- ~1000 tons), then something is wrong.

Sounds like a plan.

Maybee it should be recorded to see what you are dealing with exactly.

[tater]

Might be worth waiting on kv29's possible destabilization of the gun.




tater

[kiwi_2005]

I got rid of the deck gun. To me its just another waste of time. Use up my torpedoes and head home.

[NEON DEON]

In regards to the damage amount of the 3 inch 50 deck gun, here is an link showing the miserable performance of the weapon when used against ships.

What a pop gun.

http://www.de220.com/Armament/3%20Inch/3Inch50.htm

[tater]

Notice that is was also plagued by firing when the breech was closed. If the gun was fired without the deck being level, the range would be totally off. This means taht for all but point blank range, some % of the rounds in RL (not in SH4) would be wasted (dropping the effective ROF).

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by tater

Notice that is was also plagued by firing when the breech was closed. If the gun was fired without the deck being level, the range would be totally off. This means taht for all but point blank range, some % of the rounds in RL (not in SH4) would be wasted (dropping the effective ROF).

Better be pointed in the right direction when closing the breech!

Geez if You gave me a choice I would pull it and replace it with a twin 40 mm!

If I could not find a 5 incher, that is.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by tater

Notice that is was also plagued by firing when the breech was closed. If the gun was fired without the deck being level, the range would be totally off. This means taht for all but point blank range, some % of the rounds in RL (not in SH4) would be wasted (dropping the effective ROF).

The only problem I see with that idea (counting missed shots against ROF) is that you would also have to lower the amount of ammo available.

[Xelif]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Nope.

Provide me with data to make a resonable analysis.

Bad math is not a solution and can not be equated as being better than no math.

Neon, you didn't read my post did you? It's not my job to provide you with data to disprove Beery, it's your job. Later you quote 'maximum rate of fire' and also refer to the ammo locker on deck.

Where do you get the maximum rate of fire you quote?

Did you read the parts of the thread where Beery clearly states that there is a ready-ammo locker and then clearly states that we can't model the existance of such?

Finally, it's easy enough to fire at a "maximum average rate" in SH4 since you SEE when the shell is reloading and can fire immediately. I sure don't fire below the rate SH4 gives me (or Beery gives me..) without deliberate intent.

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

I have seen no logs that show maximum rate of fire and if there is one that really lists max rate, I would like to see em. No log I have seen makes it clear they are firing rapid as fast as possible.

NEON, think about it. Do you really think the WAHOO in the logs Beery posted was firing slower than (quick edit) a sustainable maximum? What skipper in their right mind would wish a surface artillery duel to go on longer than the shortest possible time? What, were they taking cigarette breaks in between shots??

(edit) Also, as we're all saying here (you included I believe) maximum rate of fire sitting at a target range in Pearl is a lot different than maximum rate of fire under combat conditions.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, I just had a "what threw me into involintary projectile vomiting almost immideately (sic)" experience of my own! I had been running RFB for awhile and chose to temporarily unload it as part of my process of learning to shoot torpedoes on full manual. That way I can monitor my aiming process and analyse mistakes easier than a real captain could do.

In other words I can cheat and learn faster that any real person could do in WW II. I surfaced to use the deck gun and about barfed. What is this stupid thing, a machine gun??????? The game developers missed the target by a huge margin of ignorance!

Beery, perfect or not, RFB is my choice for nearest to reality. Stick to your guns! (as if you needed any encouragement there!) Don't change until you have solid documentation to the standards you have established. You "maximum rate of fire" people pointedly are ignoring the fact that average rate is the only rate available in SH4. Beery explained that at the beginning.

So, everybody else, the line for Ratchet and Clank forms to the right. I play to experience the challenges and frustrations experienced by the heroes who served in WW II. I'm not seeking entertainment, but I'm finding it in SH3, SH4 and in this thread!

[joea]

RR good post.

[NEON DEON]

LOL :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

If you guys want to believe that a gun designed to be an AA weapon too has a slower rate of fire than a 58 caliber civil war musket, then be my guest.

[Rockin Robbins]

I believe the evidence sir, and the only admissable, non-hearsay evidence on the table says an average of 29 seconds per shot under combat conditions. Order in the court! Bailiff, fine that man 20 clams. lol Great quote from Fluckey's book by the way. I have a signed copy and it's worth as much as my wife. Well... maybe not.

I gotta kill the magenta on the signature. Anybody else getting to hate it as much as I am?

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I gotta kill the magenta on the signature. Anybody else getting to hate it as much as I am?

It will look just FABOO with your soon-to-come "Navy Dude" avatar

[DedEye]

I watched a Canadian army news broadcast regarding the M777 (155mm light howitzer) last weekend. There was a quiz in it about the firing rate which is actually considerably faster than the technical specifications of the gun. Given the wide variation over myriad equipment and capabilities of the crews, the specs can't be relied upon to determine the "real" firing rate.

My experience using the deck gun is, as someone has pointed out earlier, akin to firing the main gun on an Abrams. We know this technology was not used on WW2 fleet subs.

Given the software and the limits to which our friends can modify it, certain compromises are going to have to be made. I've read Beery's numerous posts on the topic and his logic and reasoning on why he has modelled the deck gun they way he has and it is very sound. He's done some research and has stats to back his conclusions. Essentially, he is taking the end results versus individual shots. Is it perfect? No, but given the limitations of the current version of the game, it's probably as close as we're going to get.

Now if they dropped the gyrostabilizer....:hmm:

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by DedEye

Is it perfect? No, but given the limitations of the current version of the game, it's probably as close as we're going to get.

Now if they dropped the gyrostabilizer....:hmm:

I agree with you. Since there's only one rate of fire allowed by the game mechanics, its always going to be slower than the ROF for gun action with the shells stored in the ammo locker on deck, and faster than the ROF for gun action with shells stored below decks and passed up through the hatch. A happy medium between the two would be best, and if it comes down to a matter of a few seconds difference, then I think we have it pinned down good enough for our purposes.

I still believe, common sense wise, that the major limiting factor would have to be targeting the gun in the midst of a pitching and rolling sea, and not necessarily how fast a shell could be loaded in the breech. You can't very well fire when you're on top of a wave swell, or in a trough.