Russian Politics Thread - Page 10

Jimbuna · 09-02-20, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

So it is Novichok.

Difficult to track down the attacker then, Novichok is so wide-spread that it is kept in practically every household around the world.

Ah - wait...

I never knew sarcasm was one of your skills

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/sho...&postcount=145

Catfish · 09-02-20, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

So it is Novichok. [...]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-r...-idUSKBN25T272

The russian government condemns this attack in the strongest terms and will find the one(s) responsible for this.
Next: Some russian doctors fear for their lives.

Skybird · 09-02-20, 10:02 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent

"Developed by the Soviet Union and Russia between 1971 and 1993."

And now I am not sarcastic. But laconic.

Jimbuna · 09-02-20, 10:27 AM

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

Skybird · 09-02-20, 10:53 AM

Der Tagesspiegel:

"
The Russian government critic Alexej Navalny has been poisoned with the chemical nerve agent Novitschok according to studies by a special laboratory. The federal government announced on Wednesday that the laboratory tests provided “unequivocal evidence”.

Novichok is a group of highly effective fourth-generation neurotoxins and warfare agents that were developed in the Soviet Union from the 1970s and further researched in Russia until at least the 1990s. Some of these are warfare agents whose existence was unknown to the public until October 1991. In a broader sense, numerous other highly toxic variants, also developed in Russia, are referred to as the "Novitschok" type. What they have in common is that they inhibit acetylcholinesterase.

Cholinesterase is an enzyme that the body needs to process a very important substance: acetylcholine. It is primarily necessary for the transmission of signals from nerve cells to other nerve cells, but also to muscle cells, and is to a certain extent "reactivated" by the cholinesterase after each transmitted stimulus.

If the enzyme is prevented from doing this because it is blocked by inhibitors (cholinesterase inhibitors), the transmission of stimuli no longer works - the muscles cramp, which can lead to death if the respiratory or heart muscles are affected.

The inhibition of the enzymes can be demonstrated comparatively easily by testing the activity of the cholinesterase enzymes, preferably those in the blood plasma. If they no longer or hardly work, they must have been inhibited.

The substances that can inhibit cholinesterases include "the most important chemical warfare agents - nerve gases such as sarin, VX, soman, taboo, cyclosarin - but also certain pesticides - E605, chlorpyrifos," said Thomas Hartung, toxicologist at the American Johns Hopkins University.

Victims' first symptoms are usually smaller pupils, increased salivation and profuse sweating, spasms, cramps, paralysis, breathing problems and finally heart failure - depending on how the poison gets into the body. “The outlook for treatment depends on how much of which substance was administered and how quickly the correct therapy was initiated,” says Hartung.

Few details are known about Novichok. Presumably it consists of two components which are inherently non-toxic and only develop their deadly danger when mixed. The relic from the Cold War is said to be five to ten times more potent than the chemical warfare agent VX. With this, the half-brother of the North Korean ruler Kim Jong Un was murdered in Malaysia in February 2017. Novitschok, which is often used in the form of an extremely fine powder, enters the body through the skin or the respiratory tract.

A neurotoxin from the Novichok group was also used in the poisoning of former Russian double spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Julia in Salisbury, UK in 2018. The two only barely survived. "I said at the time that the Russians could have left a business card at the crime scene because the substances can be so clearly assigned," said Hartung.
"

mapuc · 09-02-20, 11:16 AM

It has now been proven Alexej Navalny has been poison.

What can our leader in the west really do ?

As I see it......not much

Impose embargo-which doesn't have much affect on Russian economy
(maybe it would due to world wide economy crisis)
Break diplomatically with Russia.

I think some of you will tell a lot more and what tools EU and NATO have.
(NO not war)

Markus

Bilge_Rat · 09-02-20, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

It has now been proven Alexej Navalny has been poison.

What can our leader in the west really do ?

As I see it......not much

Impose embargo-which doesn't have much affect on Russian economy
(maybe it would due to world wide economy crisis)
Break diplomatically with Russia.

I think some of you will tell a lot more and what tools EU and NATO have.
(NO not war)

Markus

easy, Merkel could just cancel the Nord Stream 2 pipeline to punish Russia.

Skybird · 09-02-20, 02:25 PM

... and reward Trump'S Holterdipolter policy and increasing energy dependency from overpriced American liquid gas deliveries and paying too much for these?? No, thanks, the one option is so unlikeable like the other.

Also, like it or not, Russia is needed in many things and regards. Syria. Libya. Even on Erdoghan he has huge influence, since Turkey cannot ignore Russia.

The simple unwelcomed fact is that the West has arranged itself for too long with Russia and now sits in a trap, cannot move out, cannot stay put.

Well. That is what Realpolitik is about. To differ between what can be done in reality and what should be done in an ideal world. Lets face it, Russia is our continental land neighbour. The US is not.

Merkel certainly once again now gets the bill for a policy of 15 years syytematcally incraiosng Germany'S dependencies and vunerabilities for short-sighted oppotunism and lack of realistic longterm strategy. Germany has more important thigns to do. Savign the pkanet all by itself, for exmaple. The Energiewende. And making the world follow our moral abolutism.

A dilemma for Germany and the EU. Home-made.

Catfish · 09-02-20, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc

[...] I think some of you will tell a lot more and what tools EU and NATO have. (NO not war) Markus

Danes summon Russian envoy over airspace violation: https://apnews.com/d1548c0db19992d20e99bab06dba9f0e

Seems Putin does not care much

He wants a multipolar world without international consent towards a united world, he got it. He wants a cold war again, he got it. He wants confusion and doubts about democracy and life in the US, he got it. Russian tsar shtronk!
Does he want war? Not yet. But peace is not on his agenda.

US republicans and Trump at the helm should normally mean competition and a hard hand towards Russia, but no! The US is weak as never before, ignoring its allies, retreating everywhere, basically betraying what has been done and held up for decades.
Putin's support against the democrats (which are not politically "left" at all, in the US) means that he sees the USA weaker that way, and he has been proven right. Certainly with a bit of internet and troll help (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/29/t...-election.html), but it works. People in the west are so unbelievably dumb. And Putin uses this to its full potential.

mapuc · 09-02-20, 03:43 PM

Heard something interesting in the news which I have been thinking of too.

This poison isn't exactly a substans you can buy in every shop or on every corner. It's controlled by the government and only trusted employees have access to it.

Which mean either is Putin behind it or he and the government does not have fully control over their intelligence service like FSB.

Markus

Skybird · 09-02-20, 04:38 PM

Putin wants Trump, becasue Trump takes an efficient, focussed America out of world affairs. Its destracted and so busy withg it self that it is no obstacle to Russian powerplay.

Xi wants Biden, toi get rid of those needless trade wars that hinders the soft conquest of the world via the Silk Road project. Trump is seeking too much confrontation at all costs, because that is his elixier of political survival to score with his crowds. He delivers the plebs panem at circensis, and the ylove him for that, even if it means not much. Biuden would noit confront China as tough anymore, but wpould do the usual diplomatio bubble and appeasement most likey.

So China's and Russia's interests in the US election are quite different.

And the EU? Is a leaf on thew water, moving up and down and back and forth according to how the wind from Russia blows, the tidings from china flows, the dysfunctional weather control system from America manipulates.

It will either learn in this chaos to grow stronger, or it will fall. Just continuing like it had in the past 30 years - that is no option expect for rendering itself impotent and menaingless.

The EU defends way too long borders, I mean that ideologically, not geographically. It claims to be too much. It will need to signficiantly cut back its claims for what it wants to be, and focus on financial and military strength and rebuildign industrial (=IT-related and nuclear power related) core competences. All that cultural, idealistic, socialist mumbo-jumbo - forget it, its a millstone around its neck. The world of the 21st century is not less an arena as it was before. Thick wallets, hard fists, strong muscles and mental shrewdness are what counts. Wolves and sheep. Just wolves and sheep. And the overboarding wellfare system - simply is not sustainable.

All in all I see the world massively moving not towards but away from democratic societies, and moving towards growing totalitarianism and collectivism. And nowhere faster than in Europe and America. The longterm consequences and financial costs of Corona have ultimnately shoiwn the debt crisisa to be unsolvable, and the structural changes it means for the money system will see for that. Becasue onyl with totalitarian govenrment powers the collapsing money system can be still enforced without the masses going into open civil war. The intolerance and madness in Americas is obvious. And China and Russia must not be convinced of the charms of totalitarianism.

ikalugin · 09-02-20, 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

So it is Novichok.

Difficult to track down the attacker then, Novichok is so wide-spread that it is kept in practically every household around the world.

Ah - wait...

Not only did some stocks go "missing" in 1990s (with some notable assasinations following, such as the banker getting poisoned via his phone) the formula and the means to manufacture it are known, including via ex-Soviet defectors.

In fact because one of the goals of Novichok series was ease of manufacture it is easier to make than VX, which was manufactured in small quantities by a certain Japanese death cult from what I recall.

p.s. also, yes, it was obvious more or less straight away that the poison narrative would blosson into the Novichok one, regardless of what actually happened to Navalny.

skidman · 09-02-20, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catfish

Seems Putin does not care much

He wants a multipolar world without international consent towards a united world, he got it. He wants a cold war again, he got it. He wants confusion and doubts about democracy and life in the US, he got it. Russian tsar shtronk!
Does he want war? Not yet. But peace is not on his agenda.

Agreed. A intelligence man playing by Machiavellian rules. America and Europe tongue-tied, weak and powerless. Had the West not broken the promise to not expand NATO eastwards we could stand united against China. Ah well...

Skybird · 09-02-20, 06:59 PM

One has taken note of with what naturalness the Russian govenrment and some Duma dude used Trump rhetorics (or does Trump use Russian rhetoric patterns?) and already lay doubt on the Germans. It was with greatest naturalness implied that while Nawalny showed no signs of poisoning (so the zussian narration) when being transported out of Russia, it must have been the Germans themsleves who poiusoned him with Novichok afterwards.

No matter what you throw at these sort of agitators - they always u-turn it and throw it back and leave it to that, posing as innocent victims themselves.

The Germans meanwhile have "demanded" that Russia fully cooperates and does all possible to secure transparency and a solving of this case. They demanded it with much detmerination. And Merkel said it herself, that must impress!

Russia said it will do right that.

Like they did after their assassintion of a Chechnian in Berlin Tiergarten, which also caused the Germans to be very determined. And Russia was very impressed.

Mr Quatro · 09-02-20, 07:54 PM

"You reap what you sow" is one of the oldest laws known to mankind

It's just a matter of time till the truth is out into the open

09-02-20, 10:02 AM	#138
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,646 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novichok_agent "Developed by the Soviet Union and Russia between 1971 and 1993." And now I am not sarcastic. But laconic. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-02-20, 10:27 AM	#139
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 181,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!! GWX3.0 Download Page - Donation/instant access to GWX (Help SubSim)

09-02-20, 10:53 AM	#140
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,646 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Der Tagesspiegel: " The Russian government critic Alexej Navalny has been poisoned with the chemical nerve agent Novitschok according to studies by a special laboratory. The federal government announced on Wednesday that the laboratory tests provided “unequivocal evidence”. Novichok is a group of highly effective fourth-generation neurotoxins and warfare agents that were developed in the Soviet Union from the 1970s and further researched in Russia until at least the 1990s. Some of these are warfare agents whose existence was unknown to the public until October 1991. In a broader sense, numerous other highly toxic variants, also developed in Russia, are referred to as the "Novitschok" type. What they have in common is that they inhibit acetylcholinesterase. Cholinesterase is an enzyme that the body needs to process a very important substance: acetylcholine. It is primarily necessary for the transmission of signals from nerve cells to other nerve cells, but also to muscle cells, and is to a certain extent "reactivated" by the cholinesterase after each transmitted stimulus. If the enzyme is prevented from doing this because it is blocked by inhibitors (cholinesterase inhibitors), the transmission of stimuli no longer works - the muscles cramp, which can lead to death if the respiratory or heart muscles are affected. The inhibition of the enzymes can be demonstrated comparatively easily by testing the activity of the cholinesterase enzymes, preferably those in the blood plasma. If they no longer or hardly work, they must have been inhibited. The substances that can inhibit cholinesterases include "the most important chemical warfare agents - nerve gases such as sarin, VX, soman, taboo, cyclosarin - but also certain pesticides - E605, chlorpyrifos," said Thomas Hartung, toxicologist at the American Johns Hopkins University. Victims' first symptoms are usually smaller pupils, increased salivation and profuse sweating, spasms, cramps, paralysis, breathing problems and finally heart failure - depending on how the poison gets into the body. “The outlook for treatment depends on how much of which substance was administered and how quickly the correct therapy was initiated,” says Hartung. Few details are known about Novichok. Presumably it consists of two components which are inherently non-toxic and only develop their deadly danger when mixed. The relic from the Cold War is said to be five to ten times more potent than the chemical warfare agent VX. With this, the half-brother of the North Korean ruler Kim Jong Un was murdered in Malaysia in February 2017. Novitschok, which is often used in the form of an extremely fine powder, enters the body through the skin or the respiratory tract. A neurotoxin from the Novichok group was also used in the poisoning of former Russian double spy Sergei Skripal and his daughter Julia in Salisbury, UK in 2018. The two only barely survived. "I said at the time that the Russians could have left a business card at the crime scene because the substances can be so clearly assigned," said Hartung. " __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-02-20, 02:25 PM	#143
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,646 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	... and reward Trump'S Holterdipolter policy and increasing energy dependency from overpriced American liquid gas deliveries and paying too much for these?? No, thanks, the one option is so unlikeable like the other. Also, like it or not, Russia is needed in many things and regards. Syria. Libya. Even on Erdoghan he has huge influence, since Turkey cannot ignore Russia. The simple unwelcomed fact is that the West has arranged itself for too long with Russia and now sits in a trap, cannot move out, cannot stay put. Well. That is what Realpolitik is about. To differ between what can be done in reality and what should be done in an ideal world. Lets face it, Russia is our continental land neighbour. The US is not. Merkel certainly once again now gets the bill for a policy of 15 years syytematcally incraiosng Germany'S dependencies and vunerabilities for short-sighted oppotunism and lack of realistic longterm strategy. Germany has more important thigns to do. Savign the pkanet all by itself, for exmaple. The Energiewende. And making the world follow our moral abolutism. A dilemma for Germany and the EU. Home-made. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-02-20, 04:38 PM	#146
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,646 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Putin wants Trump, becasue Trump takes an efficient, focussed America out of world affairs. Its destracted and so busy withg it self that it is no obstacle to Russian powerplay. Xi wants Biden, toi get rid of those needless trade wars that hinders the soft conquest of the world via the Silk Road project. Trump is seeking too much confrontation at all costs, because that is his elixier of political survival to score with his crowds. He delivers the plebs panem at circensis, and the ylove him for that, even if it means not much. Biuden would noit confront China as tough anymore, but wpould do the usual diplomatio bubble and appeasement most likey. So China's and Russia's interests in the US election are quite different. And the EU? Is a leaf on thew water, moving up and down and back and forth according to how the wind from Russia blows, the tidings from china flows, the dysfunctional weather control system from America manipulates. It will either learn in this chaos to grow stronger, or it will fall. Just continuing like it had in the past 30 years - that is no option expect for rendering itself impotent and menaingless. The EU defends way too long borders, I mean that ideologically, not geographically. It claims to be too much. It will need to signficiantly cut back its claims for what it wants to be, and focus on financial and military strength and rebuildign industrial (=IT-related and nuclear power related) core competences. All that cultural, idealistic, socialist mumbo-jumbo - forget it, its a millstone around its neck. The world of the 21st century is not less an arena as it was before. Thick wallets, hard fists, strong muscles and mental shrewdness are what counts. Wolves and sheep. Just wolves and sheep. And the overboarding wellfare system - simply is not sustainable. All in all I see the world massively moving not towards but away from democratic societies, and moving towards growing totalitarianism and collectivism. And nowhere faster than in Europe and America. The longterm consequences and financial costs of Corona have ultimnately shoiwn the debt crisisa to be unsolvable, and the structural changes it means for the money system will see for that. Becasue onyl with totalitarian govenrment powers the collapsing money system can be still enforced without the masses going into open civil war. The intolerance and madness in Americas is obvious. And China and Russia must not be convinced of the charms of totalitarianism. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert. Last edited by Skybird; 09-02-20 at 04:47 PM.

09-02-20, 11:16 AM	#141
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,104 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	It has now been proven Alexej Navalny has been poison. What can our leader in the west really do ? As I see it......not much Impose embargo-which doesn't have much affect on Russian economy (maybe it would due to world wide economy crisis) Break diplomatically with Russia. I think some of you will tell a lot more and what tools EU and NATO have. (NO not war) Markus

09-02-20, 03:43 PM	#145
mapuc Fleet Admiral Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Denmark Posts: 18,104 Downloads: 37 Uploads: 0	Heard something interesting in the news which I have been thinking of too. This poison isn't exactly a substans you can buy in every shop or on every corner. It's controlled by the government and only trusted employees have access to it. Which mean either is Putin behind it or he and the government does not have fully control over their intelligence service like FSB. Markus

09-02-20, 06:59 PM	#149
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 40,646 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	One has taken note of with what naturalness the Russian govenrment and some Duma dude used Trump rhetorics (or does Trump use Russian rhetoric patterns?) and already lay doubt on the Germans. It was with greatest naturalness implied that while Nawalny showed no signs of poisoning (so the zussian narration) when being transported out of Russia, it must have been the Germans themsleves who poiusoned him with Novichok afterwards. No matter what you throw at these sort of agitators - they always u-turn it and throw it back and leave it to that, posing as innocent victims themselves. The Germans meanwhile have "demanded" that Russia fully cooperates and does all possible to secure transparency and a solving of this case. They demanded it with much detmerination. And Merkel said it herself, that must impress! Russia said it will do right that. Like they did after their assassintion of a Chechnian in Berlin Tiergarten, which also caused the Germans to be very determined. And Russia was very impressed. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

09-02-20, 07:54 PM	#150
Mr Quatro Navy Seal Join Date: May 2013 Posts: 6,772 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	"You reap what you sow" is one of the oldest laws known to mankind It's just a matter of time till the truth is out into the open __________________ pla•teau noun a relatively stable level, period, or condition a level of attainment or achievement Lord help me get to the next plateau ..