Some moral questions by a German...

[John Pancoast]

Originally Posted by sordid

First of all - if you find something I write offending, this might be due to my poor command of the English language. So when in doubt, before getting angry, simply ask what I actually meant.
I am a German citizen, born in 1975.
After this disclaimer now for my actual question:
Why do so many people here obviously enjoy taking the role of a German soldier during WWII and what are your feelings towards this rather delicate detail?
Having read this forum for the last few days almost excessively, I am absolutely sure that the vast majority of players here is aware of the German history, at least concerning the Third Reich.
When reading forums that deal with landbased warfare games, you easily get the impression that many people, especially Americans, would absolutely refuse to play as a German soldier. Now this is a pretty hard contrast to the enthusiasm I see in many fellow subcommanders here on this board.
I can imagine a few reasons for this.
Naval units, in opposite to army members, were never going toe to toe with their opponents. Hardly any visible blood, no guts flying around.
The navy was not corrupted by massacres against civilians, opposed to army soldiers.
But on the other hand, they were sinking ships full of civilians and their enormous success especially in the earlier days of the war was a pretty important factor why Hitler was able to maintain power that long and bring his wrath and destruction over the whole continent (and beyond), resulting in over 50,000,000 people dead and another 35,000,000 wounded - not to mention the tragedy of the Holocaust.
Now how do you justify playing as a member of the German navy to yourself?
Do you think the same way I do? In PC games, I personally don't care who is getting killed by whom since it's only a PC game and I am extremely fascinated by mastering the technical and navigational challenges as well as setting up traps for "enemy" escorts.
Or does anybody have a completely different approach towards this?
Well - I'm just curious!
Take care!

Excellent questions. Imo, a LOT of players play the German side in any WW2 game because they think one or more of the following:

- the German military was actually the best at the time, etc.
- the German arms were the best/sexiest toys to play with, etc.
- German military arm (insert branch name here) was actually not pro-Nazi, etc., so that branch is "ok" to simulate.

I don't subscribe/agree with these lines of thought myself, but many do. No big deal.

[stabiz]

So you disagree?

Do you play SH3?

[IrishUboot]

If I may shake off the reins of political correctness and the great shame that is self censorship, I have no qualms playing a subsim as a Kriegsmarine sub commander nor do I find the imposed German guilt complex at all endearing. Whatever your political or historical opinions, the second war happened for many reasons, and is unquestionably too complex a subject for discussion in this forum. Something my history teacher told me at a young age has always stuck; that it is the victor who writes history. Never has this been more true than in the aftermath of the war. It has led us to this position of an unchallengeable version of history, free from proper historical debate.

Five years ago, I left my study of history behind to read the law. Maybe it helps explain my approach to such issues. I like to take history with an open mind, weighing the facts, analyzing events, details, motives and opinions as any lawyer should. Being Irish and growing up during the Troubles, I've also experienced first hand the nature of conflict in the knowledge that those who wield the power of the pen can write history in such a way as to make it palatable for their intended audience.

Maybe it's time we pulled off the blinkers and allowed historians and political commentators to do their job. I'm just throwing my two cents in, for what it's worth.

[John Pancoast]

Whew, a bit to much revisionist history in this thread for my taste, think it's best I bow out of it

[SkvyWvr]

Originally Posted by John Pancoast

Whew, a bit to much revisionist history in this thread for my taste, think it's best I bow out of it

Stick around man. I fully expect it to boil up again.

[galahad]

Well, in response to the original topic of this thread, no I have no reservation whatsoever about playing a German, in fact I actually prefer to be German in any game where it is possible.

I don't even really know why to be honest, maybe just because they are just plain way cooler than any other faction. I'm sorry to say, but everyone knows that the Germans always get all the ladies, fyi the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.

[IrishUboot]

Originally Posted by galahad

the German uniforms of the time (maybe not all, but amry to be sure) were designed by Hugo Boss. I found a website where they talk about the uniforms extensively, unfortunately I don't have a link, as it is bookmarked on my other computer.

Did a quick search on Wiki: "Before and during World War II, Mr. Boss' company both designed and manufactured uniforms and attire for the troops and officers of the Wehrmacht as well as for other governmental branches of Nazi Germany, including the SS."

You're right about the uniforms. They put the other belligerent parties to shame. If you're going to fight a war (declared upon your nation, of course), the least you can do is look your best.

[Spaxspore]

Originally Posted by IrishUboot

Did a quick search on Wiki: "Before and during World War II, Mr. Boss' company both designed and manufactured uniforms and attire for the troops and officers of the Wehrmacht as well as for other governmental branches of Nazi Germany, including the SS."

You're right about the uniforms. They put the other belligerent parties to shame. If you're going to fight a war (declared upon your nation, of course), the least you can do is look your best.

Yea ive always felt that the Germany miltary had the best looking uniforms (especially army) then any other country involved in the war.

[pythos]

I have had interests in submarines for ages, and one thing that stands out is, the Germans are the ones that made submarine warfare an effective combat tool. Think about this, Be glad Donitz did not get his way. The Nazi government put very little into the kriegsmarine in comparison to the army, and airforce, and lets not forget those guouls, the SS.

As far as the victims of the subs are concerned, Even with a direct hit on a liner, or cargo hauler there was still the chance of surviving the attack, and getting on a lifeboat, or getting picked up by fellow ships. Tankers, not so much.

But as someone here has stated, War is hell, and that is why it should not be done.

If Donitz did get what he requested, the war would have been much, much different. First off, the supply lines would have been wiped out the first few months. Any enemy ship would have gone to the bottom. This would have caused the opposing armies and civilians to suffer greater than they were at the time (the victims of the stupid final solution are exempt from this, cause you can't get much worse)

Now, something I have learned with my research for this game is, the kreigsmarine submarine force was about as far from being a Nazi force as you could get. I have heard that some jews actually served on some boats (this has not been verified). The german submariners are the only ones I have heard of actually surfacing and helping the victims of their attacks (that is until the Lacitonia incident, you should read up on this debacle) The Germans did this in both wars. This is verified from testimony from allied ship crews that had these encounters. A few Jackass commanders shot up lifeboats and killed men stranded in the water, but they were the exception, not the rule. This "kindness" seems completly lacking from other contries' sub services, Both American and Japanese commanders were known to slaughter men in lifeboats (read about the I32 a japanese submarine that was one of many involved in war crimes, or the Wahoo, whose decorated comander had no problem having the "japs" gunned down while struggling in the water) and in the water using the AA weapondry and hand held weapons. I am unsure what the Russian, British, or Italian forces did, though I have heard the Russians were vicious to there own men during the Russian revolution.

The general attitude of the commanders, and crews of the subs was "Hitler is an idiot, and Georing is a fat bastard." Probably because of the lack of support from the Luftwaffe. Only later in the war when Hitler youth brainwashed boys started joining did this attitude change, and usually these commanders were the least successful either through enemy action, or pure incompetance.

Now, for me... I hate the fact we humans are still fighting wars. I wish WWII sims were as far as one can go for war games because of the fact there are no more wars after WWII. I wish the type XXI was the ultimate in submarine development. I wish the B-29 was the final version of a bomber, and the shearman was the top of the line. Essentially I wish we stupid humans learned the lesson that war is both costly and stupid, and put our energies in something far far more worthwhile, such as the exploration of space, or the seas.

I would have qualms of playing a game from the tank commander of a german tank, or as a foot soldier view. The Lufwaffe was also very entrenched in the Nazi view, though most of the pilot's didn't give a fig about the party, they were just fighting for the fatherland. The aircraft of the Luftwaffe were many levels better than the allied machines later in the war, and to fly on that side in a sim is pretty much inevitable. Once again, be happy Hitler and Georing were idiots cause if the 262, Do 335, AR234, Go229, and other such machines got developed as they could have been, this world would be much different.