Type XXI in NYGM (Fifi)

[Tabris]

I figured it would be more respectful to quarantine this discussion to its own thread, as Fifi is regularly updating NYGM and I'd rather not pollute its own stickied thread. He has made it very clear that he has no interest in the XXI!

Here we can discuss the Type XXI in this mod, what works and what doesn't work. I've got the boat in a mostly-working state currently, and here are the relevant files in case anyone wants to have a look:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/ilbgn...weaks.rar/file

Note that this is not a "mod" per-say, in the sense that it's not being distributed as a complete work, even as a WIP. Rather I'm providing these files in case anyone would like to compare the changes to their own modified files, for the advancement of our collective knowledge. If you drop these into your game, and it all works out, then great, but I make no guarantees.

I'll make a more coherent post outlining all the problems with the XXI which I can identify and explain, and what I did to fix them if anything, at a later date. I imagine many people who have little to no interest in playing the XXI have no idea what I'm talking about.

- Tabris

[Fifi]

Thank you Tabris

[Silentmauri89]

Originally Posted by Tabris

I figured it would be more respectful to quarantine this discussion to its own thread, as Fifi is regularly updating NYGM and I'd rather not pollute its own stickied thread. He has made it very clear that he has no interest in the XXI!

Here we can discuss the Type XXI in this mod, what works and what doesn't work. I've got the boat in a mostly-working state currently, and here are the relevant files in case anyone wants to have a look:

https://www.mediafire.com/file/ilbgn...weaks.rar/file

Note that this is not a "mod" per-say, in the sense that it's not being distributed as a complete work, even as a WIP. Rather I'm providing these files in case anyone would like to compare the changes to their own modified files, for the advancement of our collective knowledge. If you drop these into your game, and it all works out, then great, but I make no guarantees.

I'll make a more coherent post outlining all the problems with the XXI which I can identify and explain, and what I did to fix them if anything, at a later date. I imagine many people who have little to no interest in playing the XXI have no idea what I'm talking about.

- Tabris

Thank you, Tabris. I like to play with the Type XXI - even tough It never actually fought WW2. I tried to use your files, but I activated them as a MOD through JSGME - and the radar stll get destroyed.
I've been playing SH3 for a long time, but as a modder, I just started, basically. Do you have any suggestion for me, about how to get your tweak files up and running on my SH3.
I just loaded FIFI NYGM enhanced stand alone MOD and after that, your tweak files, but radar still gets destroyed.

[Tabris]

So, just what is so "broken" about this type in NYGM?

The lovely HD models for all player boats in NYGM come from "German U-Boats Compilation," to the best of my knowledge. A few of these problems seem inherent to the XXI from this mod, but not all.

These issues are in no particular order:
Problem: Very slow recharging time: 10+ hours to go from 50% to 100%
I'm not a pro modder, and my grasp of this isn't perfect, but my understanding is that recharge times are a function of diesel/electric engine horsepower/RPM, and battery capacity (range at given speed), in the .sim file. evan82 has said that increasing engine HP makes a boat easier to detect, and it makes sense that E-machine HP would do this, but I haven't been able to determine if diesel HP actually effects it when the diesels aren't running. It stands to reason that if the diesels are stronger it's easier for the enemy to hear us while snorkeling. No doubt there are modders among us who can say for sure.
Fix: In testing I found the XXI in NYGM had better underwater endurance than most sources claim was historical, and far worse recharging rates. By reducing the range and slightly tweaking engine HP, we now have much closer endurance to real life (285nm at 6kt - uboataces, 340nm at 5kt - uboat.net. my changes put us in that ballpark) and a recharge time of 3-4hr to go from 50-60% back to max. In my opinion this is still too slow, but it's acceptable and less distracting, and any faster recharging would either reduce endurance or compromise noise levels, though that last part merits further testing.

Problem: inaccurate instruments: the control room battery charge indicator bottoms out at 20% and caps out at 80%, and the knotmeter caps out at 8kt (17kt reads as 8kt)
Fix: Instrument data files are contained in the "Interiors" folder. These were fairly easy to fix through trial and error, but I wasn't able to make them 100% accurate. The control room battery indicator is now about 99% accurate, and the knotmeter is accurate until you reach about 14kt, above which it becomes slightly off but still close enough to be usable.

Problem: "Radar destroyed, sir!"
I cannot stand this bug! Frankly the constantly-breaking radars are a complete mystery to me in NYGM. I cannot get FUMO 30 to work on ANY boat. FUMO 61 works on only the VIIC/41 and the IXC/40, and none of the other types. FUMO 29 is the only set that works consistently.
Fix: By some miracle, after moving the nodes around and trying seemingly everything, FUMO 64 now works on the XXI after I zeroed-out all the values for the R01 node under "rotation." If you're crazy enough to try to get the arcane FUMO 391 working, may God help you, because I have no clue.

Problem: Snorkel depth is too deep, causing the intake to constantly get swamped by waves. Periscope depth is a little better but still isn't quite shallow enough for snorkeling in heavy seas
Fix: This is one of the simplest parameters to change, since it's in the boat's .cfg file in plain text. It's easy to modify this yourself, but I personally just switched the two values. I also tend to order depth 14.5m when trying to snorkel at moderate wind speeds

Problem: The boat is too tippy and the periscope is too hard to use in rough weather
Fix: Lowered the boat's center of gravity. Again this idea came from evan82. This thing weighs like 2000 tons! It shouldn't bounce around like a Type VII.

Problem: Slow surfacing. The boat takes several minutes before the crew appear on deck, even in fine weather and with the boat fully surfaced, with the diesels running.
Fix: None. I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried several things. My only advice is to try this awkward cadence when surfacing:
1) order "surface" as normal
2) wait until the boat is at about 7m
3) order "blow ballast!"
4) as soon as the men appear on deck, immediately order "depth: 0m." This will prevent you from wasting all your compressed air.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by Silentmauri89

I activated them as a MOD through JSGME - and the radar stll get destroyed.

That is terribly disappointing. When I have time, I'll try dropping in these files to a fresh install and seeing if I can replicate the problem, beyond that, I don't know what else can be done. We're at the "works on my machine" stage of modding. it's all so tiresome. If only I had two PCs so I could test things in a "sterilized" environment!

- Tabris

[Tabris]

if you'd be willing to help continue testing, would you try it with my basic.cfg and sensors.dat files as well? These are heavily modified and you will not want to play any sort of career with them installed, but it may be worth a shot for the sake of the radar problem. Totally spitballing here, it probably makes no difference.

Remember to back up your originals, these are very important files. Please don't brick your build!

https://www.mediafire.com/file/dlhlm...nsors.rar/file

[Plissken_04]

@Tabris

Download the Fumo-391 Bugfix from Rowi58, maybe this can help you.

https://gofile.me/2YNK2/gHWYEXx7b

[Silentmauri89]

Originally Posted by Tabris

if you'd be willing to help continue testing, would you try it with my basic.cfg and sensors.dat files as well? These are heavily modified and you will not want to play any sort of career with them installed, but it may be worth a shot for the sake of the radar problem. Totally spitballing here, it probably makes no difference.

Remember to back up your originals, these are very important files. Please don't brick your build!

https://www.mediafire.com/file/dlhlm...nsors.rar/file

Of course, I'd like to help you testing it.

[Silentmauri89]

Originally Posted by Tabris

So, just what is so "broken" about this type in NYGM?

The lovely HD models for all player boats in NYGM come from "German U-Boats Compilation," to the best of my knowledge. A few of these problems seem inherent to the XXI from this mod, but not all.

These issues are in no particular order:
Problem: Very slow recharging time: 10+ hours to go from 50% to 100%
I'm not a pro modder, and my grasp of this isn't perfect, but my understanding is that recharge times are a function of diesel/electric engine horsepower/RPM, and battery capacity (range at given speed), in the .sim file. evan82 has said that increasing engine HP makes a boat easier to detect, and it makes sense that E-machine HP would do this, but I haven't been able to determine if diesel HP actually effects it when the diesels aren't running. It stands to reason that if the diesels are stronger it's easier for the enemy to hear us while snorkeling. No doubt there are modders among us who can say for sure.
Fix: In testing I found the XXI in NYGM had better underwater endurance than most sources claim was historical, and far worse recharging rates. By reducing the range and slightly tweaking engine HP, we now have much closer endurance to real life (285nm at 6kt - uboataces, 340nm at 5kt - uboat.net. my changes put us in that ballpark) and a recharge time of 3-4hr to go from 50-60% back to max. In my opinion this is still too slow, but it's acceptable and less distracting, and any faster recharging would either reduce endurance or compromise noise levels, though that last part merits further testing.

Problem: inaccurate instruments: the control room battery charge indicator bottoms out at 20% and caps out at 80%, and the knotmeter caps out at 8kt (17kt reads as 8kt)
Fix: Instrument data files are contained in the "Interiors" folder. These were fairly easy to fix through trial and error, but I wasn't able to make them 100% accurate. The control room battery indicator is now about 99% accurate, and the knotmeter is accurate until you reach about 14kt, above which it becomes slightly off but still close enough to be usable.

Problem: "Radar destroyed, sir!"
I cannot stand this bug! Frankly the constantly-breaking radars are a complete mystery to me in NYGM. I cannot get FUMO 30 to work on ANY boat. FUMO 61 works on only the VIIC/41 and the IXC/40, and none of the other types. FUMO 29 is the only set that works consistently.
Fix: By some miracle, after moving the nodes around and trying seemingly everything, FUMO 64 now works on the XXI after I zeroed-out all the values for the R01 node under "rotation." If you're crazy enough to try to get the arcane FUMO 391 working, may God help you, because I have no clue.

Problem: Snorkel depth is too deep, causing the intake to constantly get swamped by waves. Periscope depth is a little better but still isn't quite shallow enough for snorkeling in heavy seas
Fix: This is one of the simplest parameters to change, since it's in the boat's .cfg file in plain text. It's easy to modify this yourself, but I personally just switched the two values. I also tend to order depth 14.5m when trying to snorkel at moderate wind speeds

Problem: The boat is too tippy and the periscope is too hard to use in rough weather
Fix: Lowered the boat's center of gravity. Again this idea came from evan82. This thing weighs like 2000 tons! It shouldn't bounce around like a Type VII.

Problem: Slow surfacing. The boat takes several minutes before the crew appear on deck, even in fine weather and with the boat fully surfaced, with the diesels running.
Fix: None. I have no idea how to fix this, and I've tried several things. My only advice is to try this awkward cadence when surfacing:
1) order "surface" as normal
2) wait until the boat is at about 7m
3) order "blow ballast!"
4) as soon as the men appear on deck, immediately order "depth: 0m." This will prevent you from wasting all your compressed air.

About the Fumo 30...It took me forever to have it working; then I read in fifi's thread and he was suggesting to use the SNORKEL SIDE PIPE mod instead of the LATE WAR SENSORS mod. It works just fine, but remember to enable both radar fix mod in the HsieOptionsSelector_V16C.
I love to play around 42-43, when the Fumo 30 started to be installed onboard, but in order to do that, you'll have to edit the turrets in the SNORKEL SIDE PIPE mod, and remove the side pipes ( otherwise you're gonna have the side pipe without the snorkel ).I can upload the files I modified for myself, if you wish.
For the Fumo 29, just don't use any mod - it's gonna show up in the right place ( Believe me, I suffered a lot to find it out ). The sensors values have to be adjusted for both Fumo 29, Fumo 30, and all the radar warning antennas.

If you want, I can upload my late war modification with ranges adjustments.
I love to play the late part of the war, and I struggled a lot to have everything working, but I haven't made so late in the war to have the FUMO 61 installed, cause usually, with the adjustments I made, I die in a pretty real disgusting way, during the Biscay crossing - as it actually happened,

For the rest, I'm gonna try to do my best to help you with the Type XXI.

[Tabris]

Originally Posted by Plissken_04

@Tabris

Download the Fumo-391 Bugfix from Rowi58, maybe this can help you.

https://gofile.me/2YNK2/gHWYEXx7b

thanks, but if this is the mod I'm thinking of, then no (I'm at work right now and can't be 100% sure). I tried to get it to work using this mod multiple times. It predates the U-boat Compilation mod, no? I doubt it's relevant anymore. I even tried moving the node so the 391 would appear on the conning tower where the normal radar normally sits; it did appear there, but still results in "radar destroyed"

Originally Posted by Silentmauri89

About the Fumo 30...It took me forever to have it working; then I read in fifi's thread and he was suggesting to use the SNORKEL SIDE PIPE mod instead of the LATE WAR SENSORS mod.

It is with the side pipe files installed that FUMO 61 works on two specific types I mentioned, unfortunately. Without those versions of the Turm .dat files it doesn't work on any type. I've resorted to changing the sensor data to "nerf" it a bit to behave like a more primitive set, and changing the basic.cfg to make it available earlier.

With that being said, please do share your changes. At the very least I'd like to compare files and see if I've just broken something. Of course a fresh install would be a good idea, but you'll understand if I wait to do that until Fifi is finished with the new campaign files

[Tabris]

I haven't forgotten about this! I've got the XXI working very nicely on version 5.6. It's stable, sensors work well, I even modded-in the unused Steinbutt Walther Turbine torpedo to add more variety to the late-war weapons. Fifi's exciting flurry of updates to the mod outpaced me, but when I can, I'll get it working on the newest version as well, and upload for others to test.

On a related note, does anyone know what files influence the AI's ability to hear our own active sonar? I've found it surprisingly difficult to find actual hard facts on this subject. Most forum posts from over the years report that using the ranging sonar "around escorts" will alert them "sometimes." Some people say they won't generally react if they're more than 1000m away, while others say they're more likely to react if you ping towards them (I figured it could be heard by them omnidirectionally). I've searched ai_sensors, sim.cfg, etc, but I haven't been able to teach myself much. This boat depends on active sonar more than any other type, so it would be nice to see the sim's actual numbers. Many thanks to anyone who can help!

- Tabris
Commander of U-3153