Out of Africa?

[Rockstar]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I said they study how it changes, i.e. the process itself. Evolution does not involve how life came to be in the first place. That's another field of study altogether.

Actually you are. No, individuals don't change, not even into other individuals. That said, every child we have is different, as different genes take precedence. Every child inherits traits from both parents, which is why my dad had perfect eyesight but I inherited my mom's nearsightedness. With each child there is a chance of mutations, some of which can kill the individual, and some can be beneficial, with most doing nothing at all.

Yes, I know I inherit physical and quite possibly some say personality traits from my parents. Some good, some bad, some beneficial and not so beneficial but its within a group called homo sapien. Prove that I am evolving into something else. Heck I'll make it easier on you prove anything is or has evolved?

That's exactly what they do study, in the field and in the lab, every day. I'm not sure what you're talking about here. Are you saying that every scientist who uses evolution to create new medicines to fight the new strains of bacteria and viruses that have evolved do so solely by reading Darwin's books?

Evolutionary medicine? From what I've read about evolutionary medicine its not as wide spread school of thought or practice as one may be lead to believe. Oh sure there are many trying to promote it. But "Most medical schools have geneticists who understand evolution, but few have even one evolutionary biologist to suggest other possible applications." Hmmm wonder why? There are a tremendous amount of success stories that owe more to pediatrics, microbiology and genetics physiology, zoology, botany and absolutley nothing whatsoever to evolutionary theory. All of which got along quite well before and after without it.

They didn't just "jump to the conclusion". The study has been conducted by large numbers of scientists over a great many years. Neanderthals were a separate species who coexisted with early modern humans until they died out around 40,000 years ago. Around 400 Neanderthal skeletons have been found, enough to verify that they were more than just a handful of individuals who happened to look like that. There is ongoing discussion within scientific circles, with some arguing that these were just a subspecies and that the two could interbreed, and others arguing for a completely different species having pretty much nothing to do with modern humans. Either way, there is sufficient evidence to believe that these were a separate line of development.

Its called hybridization and if there is evidence I'll ask again that you produce it. And yes, its been a great many a years alright. From the days of Socrates the ideas sprouted we came from apes. And after over two thousand five hundred years or so it has produced absolutely no evidence of any species ever evolving from one form into another. Yes there are similarities between certain species in the fossil record but so far no evidence of how a hard shelled arthropod morphed into a fish a fish into a rodent a rodent into an ape an ape into a man. It has become such a convoluted mess, much like these arguments.

Oh, let's start with whales and dolphins. A great many skeletons exist that are recognizably whales, but with the nostrils at the end of the snout, just like pretty much all land mammals. there are whale skeletons found in higher layers with nostrils halfway up the snout, and of course there are later whales with the current blowhole on top of the head. It's pretty obvious that there are older whale-like skeletons found with legs. The front flippers of whales and dolphins, unlike fish, actually still have five finger bones.

You are observing similarities that does not prove the whale came from the one with legs or vice versa. All it tells me is that another animal with similar features lived on this planet. Try thinking along the lines of cars. A clunky piece of junk like the British made Jaguar. Oh wait the Brits dont make them anymore. How about a Bentley, umm nope they dont make them either. Mini Cooper maybe? Yes, and The All American made muscle car the Ford GT500 Mustang. They share many features four wheels, all wheel ABS, wipers, headlights, internal combustion engines. That doesn’t mean the Mustang evolved from the Jaguar. All that means is designers reuse design features proven to work for specific engineering needs.

I've heard apologists argue for their ideas on what the Bible says using scientific terms like "best explanatory value" while ignoring that phrase when it concerns evolution. The simple fact is that evolution offers the best explanation for what we find in nature, which is why scientists almost universally accept it. It's not "belief", it's simply that nothing with better explanatory value has come along. It's possible that something might, but until then nothing else explains what we've found anywhere near as well.

Contrary to what you just said bible or no bible unless you have proof. 'best explanations can still be qualified as nothing more than an unsubstantiated belief.

First, Darwin never heard of DNA, so saying "Darwinism" predicted something about it is a diversion. Second, where in any scientific literature does anything like what you described occur? Yes, I've read the Answers In Genesis articles too. It's interesting that while scientists who actually work in that field change their positions from time to time (scientists are in the business of discovery, so they necessarily do that a lot), and yet the "Design" people, who don't contribute to the science at all, use that course of discovery to claim that since scientists don't always agree and since they change their minds with new discoveries, then "Design" must be true.

I;ve never read Answers in Genisis. But I do know even in Darwin's times and before animal breeders knew there was a means to pass on information from one generation to another. They didn’t need evolutionary theory to predict it. Yet Darwinist love to claim credit for it.

"ENCODE, established after the Genome Project to make sense of our newly sequenced DNA, published in 2012 the results from more than 1,000 experiments, conducted in dozens of laboratories by hundreds of scientists on three continents—hardly a body of evidence to be ignored. But evolutionists try, hard. The latest Darwinist salvo comes from a July article in Science Daily reporting the claim of Oxford University researchers that only 8.2 percent of our DNA appears functional. Toss the rest in the junk pile, they say. It’s useless."

Anyway, here are some in the I.D. science fields, read about there work. Michael Behe, Ralph Seekl, Scott Minnich, Wolf-Ekkerd Lonnig, Gilermo Gonzalas

That's because it isn't science. Proponents of ID contribute nothing to the advancement of scientific knowledge. Their "hypothesis" is based not on scientific study of any kind but in trying to justify their belief in ancient religious texts that say nothing about the subject at hand. You used "petitio principii" where the simple English "begging the question" would have sufficed. ID proponents (who used to call themselves "Creationists" until that received so much ridicule they had to change the name and pretend it was something else) start from the premise that there is a Designer and work backwards from there. That is a classic textbook example of "petitio principii". As if that wasn't enough, they seem to have the mindset that if they can prove one thing about Evolution to be flawed then their "hypothesis" must be right. "I don't understand, therefore God." (Another classic fallacy, the "Argument from Ignorance.") ID "science" isn't about "seeking truth and evidence", it's about trying to prove that their Religious beliefs are real and nothing more. They don't care about science at all.

Why bring wikipedia and religion into the argument? I didn't, I simply suggest intelligent design you immediately equate it too god and bibles.

As for the term creationists nothing wrong with that term really. I remember a day when a scientist could have lost tenure or been the butt of many jokes had he said the universe was created Ex Nihilo. It was within our lifetime that science just knew the universe was eternal. Looking at the WMAP it seems NASA agrees with what those desert sheep herders wrote in a book several thousand years ago. Quantum theory seems to be walking closely too with the idea what many religions have purported. Rather than random selection we are the product of a design and something greater than us. But that is my opinion and my opinion only.

I.D. scientists take a different approach than what you have been lead to believe to their methods "One of the rules of science is, no miracles allowed," said Douglas H. Erwin, a paleobiologist at the Smithsonian Institution. "That's a fundamental presumption of what we do." That does not mean that scientists do not believe in God. Many do. But they see science as an effort to find out how the material world works, with nothing to say about why we are here or how we should live.


https://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/22/u...ers-clash.html

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Rockstar

Yes, I know I inherit physical and quite possibly some say personality traits from my parents. Some good, some bad, some beneficial and not so beneficial but its within a group called homo sapien. Prove that I am evolving into something else. Heck I'll make it easier on you prove anything is or has evolved?

Nylon-eating flavobacterim. Bacteria can't ingest artificial substances. Then in 1975 one was discovered that could. It seems a group of flavobacteria living in ponds near a nylon-manufacturing plant had developed an enzyme that could dissolve nylon, allowing the bacteria to eat something that was thought to be impossible. In other words, they evolved to survive their environment.

Evolutionary medicine? From what I've read about evolutionary medicine its not as wide spread school of thought or practice as one may be lead to believe. Oh sure there are many trying to promote it. But "Most medical schools have geneticists who understand evolution, but few have even one evolutionary biologist to suggest other possible applications." Hmmm wonder why? There are a tremendous amount of success stories that owe more to pediatrics, microbiology and genetics physiology, zoology, botany and absolutley nothing whatsoever to evolutionary theory. All of which got along quite well before and after without it.

And yet new strains of infectious evolve every day, and understanding that is what propels the means to fight them.

Its called hybridization and if there is evidence I'll ask again that you produce it. And yes, its been a great many a years alright. From the days of Socrates the ideas sprouted we came from apes. And after over two thousand five hundred years or so it has produced absolutely no evidence of any species ever evolving from one form into another. Yes there are similarities between certain species in the fossil record but so far no evidence of how a hard shelled arthropod morphed into a fish a fish into a rodent a rodent into an ape an ape into a man. It has become such a convoluted mess.[/quote]
Neanderthal wasn't a hybrid. It was its own species. And now it's gone, along with 99% of every species that's ever lived on this planet. The ancient Greeks, if any of them actually said we come from apes, probably noticed the similarities in structure, group conduct and problem-solving abilities. The connection isn't hard to make. And we didn't come from apes...we still are apes. Just because we're aware of our existence and able to realize we're going to die and worry about that doesn't really make us special.

You are observing similarities that does not prove the whale came from the one with legs or vice versa. All it tells me is that another animal with similar features lived on this planet.

No, it doesn't prove it, but the evidence does point in that direction.

Try thinking along the lines of cars.

Let's not. That kind of analogy never fails to fail.

Contrary to what you just said bible or no bible unless you have proof. 'best explanations can still be qualified as nothing more than an unsubstantiated belief.

And any scientist worth his salt is aware that he might be wrong. I said as much earlier. In the world of discovery "the best explanation" is often the only thing we have. As flawed as you may think it is, it still has more substance to it than saying "It was Designed". There's no evidence for that claim at all.

I;ve never read Answers in Genisis. But I do know even in Darwin's times and before animal breeders knew there was a means to pass on information from one generation to another. They didn’t need evolutionary theory to predict it. Yet Darwinist love to claim credit for it.

You've never read the biggest ID-proponent website there is? Or maybe there's a bigger one I've forgotten about. It doesn't matter. You parrot word-for-word the stock Creationist arguments, so you didn't come up with these objections on your own.

"ENCODE, established after the Genome Project to make sense of our newly sequenced DNA, published in 2012 the results from more than 1,000 experiments, conducted in dozens of laboratories by hundreds of scientists on three continents—hardly a body of evidence to be ignored. But evolutionists try, hard. The latest Darwinist salvo comes from a July article in Science Daily reporting the claim of Oxford University researchers that only 8.2 percent of our DNA appears functional. Toss the rest in the junk pile, they say. It’s useless."[/quote]
Scientists sometimes get it wrong. It's one of the pitfalls of exploration and discovery. And who sorted it out? The ID people? No, but they love to claim credit for it. Just as with the fossil hoaxes, it was scientists who pointed it out.

Anyway, here are some in the I.D. science fields, read about there work. Michael Behe,

Whose own biology department published a paper disavowing his ideas concerning ID. Also shown to be foolish in Kitzmiller v. Dover. Says that there is no ID without the Christian God.

Ralph Seekl,

Can't find any such person online. Please show.

Scott Minnich,

Cohort of Michael Behe. Also testified in Kitzmiller v. Dover. He has done good work, mostly for The Discovery Institute, which is the prime force behind the ID movement. He's better than most of them, but you can hardly call him unbiased.

Wolf-Ekkerd Lonnig,

Also a big ID proponent. Also not a good example of an average scientist.

Gilermo Gonzalas

Another member of the Discovery Institute. I don't say these people aren't legitimate, but they do all have an agenda. In that they are no different than what you claim of "Evolutionists".

Why bring religion into the argument? I didn't, I simply suggest intelligent design you equate it too god and bibles.

Yes, you did, the moment you suggested Intelligent Design you also suggested an Intelligent Designer. Were you talking about some amorphous plasma that had a brain, or were you talking about a God? The entire ID movement is centered around the Christian faith.

As for the term creationists nothing wrong with that term really.

Nothing wrong with it, except that it was coined by the original Creation Science movement and refers specifically to someone who adheres to the Biblical six-days Creation. That's why God and Bibles come into it. Without Christianity there is no Creationism, no ID. The real reason they fight Evolution so hard is that it means the Earth is more - a lot more - than Bishop Ussher's 4004 BC start date.

I remember a day when a scientist could have lost tenure or been the butt of many jokes had he said the universe was created Ex Nihilo. It was within our lifetime that science just knew the universe was eternal.

I've already addressed the fact that scientists can be wrong, and often are. It's part of the process of discovery.

Looking at the WMAP it seems NASA agrees with what those desert sheep herders wrote in a book several thousand years ago.

How so? I've just done some quick research and saw nothing that would support that claim.

But that is my opinion and my opinion only.

That's more than most Creationists would admit. Their usual arguing point is that they're right, period.

So if not God, who is this Designer? It seems to me there's no reason to believe in one unless you really want to "believe" in one. The Deists seem to come closer to what is described than any other God I've heard of. Made the universe and then left, leaving us with a brain so we could explore it for ourselves. The only problem with that scenario is that there is absolutely no reason to believe it. No evidence at all.

Understand one thing though: Despite this line of argument, I'm not a supporter of Evolution. I consider myself a true skeptic, not believing in anything and not accepting anything without proof. Evolution? The experts in the field are mostly agreed that that's the way it happened. Who am I to argue? More importantly, it doesn't affect my life at all. It doesn't command me to believe anything, or threaten me with punishment if I don't. I don't really care about it, except when people make a big fuss about its problems without offering any real explanations of their own.

Design? Well, looking at the human body, given the complications of everything from nearsightedness to wisdom teeth that don't fit our mouths to diabetes to cancer, I have to say it looks to me like a pretty poor design. Any competent engineer could have done better.