Putin is turning Russia back into USSR

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by STEED

Communism dose not work.

Oh really...

http://www.section31.com/column.php?id=14
^That article does make one mistake, the Federation does have money (the Federation "Credit") although it appears to be totally worthless and only used in the Federation...

... sorry had to make my mandatory jab at the good old UFP.

[CCIP]

Actually, I always called my political orientation "I would be communist if I didn't know people better".

Being rather left on the spectrum, I'm honestly not at all opposed to the ideal goals of communism; but there's one problem - it's based on the completely wrong assumption that people can all suddenly become rational and respectful of each other as much as themselves.

In this sense, those who created the US constitution were way ahead of Marx and the crew. They certainly realized the failings of humans, and created a much more reliable and stable system. Neither, of course, is unexploitable.

Communism never existed, by the way. China and the USSR, and all those other states, are/were just examples of how to take an ideology and exploit it to one's own ends. Likewise, the idea of "democracy" has already gone through the wash in Russia and was/is likewise exploited by the government there.

People who haven't been screwed by their government really shouldn't take it for granted. As long as there's people who want to be better than others, communism will never work, and I think that's something that's programmed into human nature (not to say inherent to everyone) and has driven society as much as it has driven natural evolution. Liberalism, in the end, is just far more appealing to most people - at least on a practical, everyday level.

Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism"

[Fish]

Originally Posted by August

What's any of that got to do with liberalism?

All! :|\

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Fish

All! :|\

Has nothing to do with American Liberalism at all. American "Liberals" usually spit on those values.

[CCIP]

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all?

[August]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Am I the only one who gets the sense that noone reads my posts on these subjects at all?

I do.

[joea]

Originally Posted by August

I do.

So do I, I honestly respect your posts a lot and consider you one of the most thoughtful and objective posters here.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by joea

So do I, I honestly respect your posts a lot and consider you one of the most thoughtful and objective posters here.

Me too CCIP. I like to read your posts. You're a well thought out guy. I agree with some of what you post. And I understand what you wrote about Liberalism, and understand you're looking at it in the classical sense of the word. And I'm just pointing out that there is no classical Liberalism in America, and it has been hijacked by hardcore commie insects in my country. Perhaps it exists in other locales. Doesn't mean I didn't read your post.

And no, I know what Communism is, and totally despise it. Human nature will not allow it. The quest for Communism in the 20th century brought so much death, tyranny and pain that I wish the "rational" people would stop their dreams of this unworkable, fictional society. Lest their "good" intentions pave another road to hell for us.

[CCIP]

Well, I was more concerned that it seemed like we're circling above the same points that were sort of mentioned, but thanks for the good words

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions" is as good a phrase as ever, I think, and I for one doubt that there were many communists who were actually in power AND had good intentions for people. Lenin, before communist, was first and foremost a smart strategist and opportunist. Stalin was a cross between an average gang leader and a megalomaniac; his successors were more or less party cronies. Gorbachev was an idealistic but poor socialist strategist, and his mistakes cost Russia dearly; Yeltsin was just a criminally awful and irresponsible (except for the pockets of his 'crew') half-leader the likes of which Russia hasn't seen since the last Czar, and that one was at least a decent man in private; Putin is back to smart and pragmatic strategist, but without any particular ideology - he lacks the charisma to push one, anyway. I honestly can't see Putin's Russia becoming ideological; for those seeking an ideology, there is a socially tangible but politically irrelevant extreme right wing - and I doubt it will ever be more than a way for angry skinheads to release their tension; ultimately, the governing coalition still holds all the cards.

I think you can safely bet that while Russia is not going to be very democratic in the next while, but it's not going to rise up in some sort of sharp ideology. The vast majority of the population is extremely weary of this.

***

As for communism, the fundamental failure of it is that it's all about classes and masses. Wester liberalism (in the non-American sense) is right in that it recognizes the very real "I" with which all people live. At least in any modern Western culture (and I think Russia is one, no matter how some may want to paint it) - a working political ideology, left-wing or right-wing, has to start with the individual. In fact - and I don't say this lightly (I've looked into cultural psychology and weighted it against my own experience) - but one reason communism was destined to fail in Russia is that modern Russians are about the most fiercely individualistic people on the planet. :hmm:

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Anyway, I won't take this for an opportunity to preach my dreams of "rational socialism"

In Finland we have Social Democrats, you might be close to them. Theres never enough money as they want to spread around and the taxes are out of control. Thats the reality of socialism. Theres a lot of people in Finland that think goverment should help them in all aspects of life. From raising their children to supporting them finacially as long as they find a job they really like. This system easily makes people passive and unable to take responsibility for themself.

[CCIP]

Well, I'm pretty skeptical of the welfare state myself, largely because it's badly managed in almost all instances. I think there's ways to manage these things better, but as it stands a lot of the systems are disfunctional and prone to abuse.

We have the NDP in Canada, too, but one reason I've been somewhat wary of them is that they seem more keen on extending than actually reforming the welfare state. :hmm:

[XabbaRus]

CCIP's post above sums it up from the time I spent studying Russian history.

I have some sympathy for Yeltsin. I think at the very beginning he really did believe he could turn Russia into a democracy but I think partly carried away with the euphoria and the inherent screwed upness of the Russian governmental system it turned very quickly into cronyism of the extreme kind. No wonder he became an alcoholic.

I think Putin is doing a not bad job considering. At the end of teh day your average Russian is like everyone else, wants a decent amount of money to live and a roof over their head. From the things I talked about with Russian friend they weren't so concerned about whether the govt controlled the TV stations as to whether they could get a decent job with good prospects and could travel.

[The Noob]

Well, i think Putin is a A$*hole.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by The Noob

Well, i think Putin is a A$*hole.

Reasoning? :hmm:

[The Noob]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Reasoning? :hmm:

Putin is Corrupt.