An honest question for those to the Left...

[Oberon]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Here's a thought:
There are congressman who have seen presidents come and go. They must have themselves quite the "good ole boys" club going.

I strongly believe not much is ever going to change in our government, until we have congressional term limits. Limit them to the same as the president, a maximum of two terms. I see this as having innumerable positive effects, but it's a pipe dream. It's asking those in power, to give up that power. A naive altruistic dream at its finest. It won't ever happen.

Exactly, the President is just a figurehead, a mouth-piece, a surprisingly limited position of power. The real power is the people behind the president, those who pull the strings, prepare the dossiers, fund the campaigns. That's where the problem lies. It's like when you weed, if you just cut off the bit that's above the ground, then the weed grows back, it's the bits you can't see that linger.

Here's a thought:

Here's a thought.
Lame duck presidents bring problems over accountability.
Making a couple of hundred lame duck congressmen will obviously bring a couple of hundred more of the same problems.
Nice idea though, but it has its downside as well as it up.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Oberon

He's not the messiah, and I think that only his die-hard fans thought that.

I can only remember Republicans calling Obama the Messiah when they are trying to deride him. I have not heard any Democrats refer to him as that.

[TarJak]

He already runs a fair proportion of the country now. Why would he want to subject himself to an electoral process as tortuous as yours?

[CaptainMattJ.]

I dont particularly like him. I think he is a mediocre leader and just another inefficient talking-head politician. But that doesn't mean he hasn't accomplished anything. Even though it is flawed and in dire need of mending, the ACA was a bold and necessary bill. To claim that this country's healthcare system was "fine" before is absolutely ridiculous. We desperately needed to reform our healthcare system, and the ACA was the first step. It still has alot of flaws, and it still has a LONG way to go. But with alot of amending and additions to the bill, it may, in the future, become the best thing Obama did in his 2 terms, aside from maybe bailing out the automotive industry/wall street to save them from collapse (along with all the jobs and financing handled by those companies). He also beat around the bush so as to avoid getting involved in Syria, which would've been disastrous.

That's about as far as my praise goes, though. Everything else hes done has either been mediocre or a disaster. Some issues were to be expected though. Its highly doubtful scandals like the NSA wouldn't have happened under another president, seeing as how those kinds of operations have been going on for 65 years now under all kinds of presidents, wiretapping and such. Every president has had a fair share of scandals, or coverups, or something that angers the people for a few weeks before it slips onto the backburner.

[AVGWarhawk]

He did not reform healthcare. He reformed insurance. The ACA is the last step. Lowering cost makes thing affordable. Throwing more money at the healthcare high cost is not reform.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I can only remember Republicans calling Obama the Messiah when they are trying to deride him. I have not heard any Democrats refer to him as that.

No, with hardcore democrat types, the way they speak, and look towards obama, it's not a stretch to say that Obama is thought of as "The chosen one". Messiah has a religous connotation, and that doesn't fit in the Democrat political lexicon.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

No, with hardcore democrat types, the way they speak, and look towards obama, it's not a stretch to say that Obama is thought of as "The chosen one". Messiah has a religous connotation, and that doesn't fit in the Democrat political lexicon.

Like Pelosi.



Then there is this look of utter disgust by a non-team member.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

He did not reform healthcare. He reformed insurance. The ACA is the last step. Lowering cost makes thing affordable. Throwing more money at the healthcare high cost is not reform.

So to you the cost controls in the PPACA don't exist. Are we seeing faster or slower medical inflation right now?

Edit - harsher than I meant it. What I'm getting at is that some of the non-insurance cost control aspects seem to be working quite well so far.
And to speak to the wider effects of the law - even if a GOP House, Senate and Presidency totally repeal Obamacare, you will never again be denied insurance because of a pre existing condition. Because good luck to the politician arguing for THAT.

To counter a small part of bubbles original post, in which he declared Obamacare a failure.

You're talking about a long-lasting and far-reaching piece of legislation that has been off the ground for a very short time. There are a lot of problems, some expected, some unexpected. Some inexcusable, some understandable.

But you don't declare a winner in the marathon after three miles. You can start predicting after ten, fifteen. Give it time. Whether you want it to succeed or fail, calling the game five minutes in is worse than useless.

Although as usual here in the Seventh Level of nice people saying ridiculous things, deaf ears, deaf ears.

[Bubblehead1980]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

So to you the cost controls in the PPACA don't exist. Are we seeing faster or slower medical inflation right now?

Edit - harsher than I meant it. What I'm getting at is that some of the non-insurance cost control aspects seem to be working quite well so far.
And to speak to the wider effects of the law - even if a GOP House, Senate and Presidency totally repeal Obamacare, you will never again be denied insurance because of a pre existing condition. Because good luck to the politician arguing for THAT.

To counter a small part of bubbles original post, in which he declared Obamacare a failure.

You're talking about a long-lasting and far-reaching piece of legislation that has been off the ground for a very short time. There are a lot of problems, some expected, some unexpected. Some inexcusable, some understandable.

But you don't declare a winner in the marathon after three miles. You can start predicting after ten, fifteen. Give it time. Whether you want it to succeed or fail, calling the game five minutes in is worse than useless.

Although as usual here in the Seventh Level of nice people saying ridiculous things, deaf ears, deaf ears.

No, it is already a failure, it was a failure from the moment it passed because it is an idiotic law.Premiums have skyrocketed for many, have been for a while, why? The taxes in this law cause costs to rise.The 15% tax on medical equipment for example.After it makes cost for everyone in the supply chain go up, who do you think will fit the bill via higher premiums(many already have)? The consumer, the now mandated(unconstitutionally, whatever the supreme court and corrupt justice robert's alleged in the most striking case of intellectual dishonesty I have seen in a long time) is stuck.Many have had their plans canceled because they don't meet the "standards" of obamacare.Yea, like men having to carry maternity coverage on their polices? lol Why people can not see how wrong it is to have the government dictate why health policy you carry, is just a sign of the sad state this country is in.All this bill has done is cause massive upheaval in a major part of our economy, and tamper with the best health care system in the world.Our quality is great, it's why so many from even places like canada with "universal healthcare" come here, but we get low rankings because a minority of citizens do not have health insurance.That contradicts Democratic collective logic, the needs of the many outway the needs of the few right? Most American's had healthcare but out of 317 million roughly 40 million did not? Even after this monstrosity is in full effect, still probably have same amount or or more without care because many won't be able to afford it and will not qualify for subsidies.This is in the long run just an underhanded expansion of the welfare state, it is a disaster and only way to "fix it" would be to overhaul it so much, it will look nothing like the law passed in 2010 but then Dems would claim it worked! it worked! Law needs to be repealed and replaced.

The few good things, such as no denial for pre existing conditions, young adults can stay until 26, they do not warrant keeping such a dangerous, idiotic law in place but should be part of any replacement, good politics and decency demand it.


Honestly, if this was ever about actual healthcare, they would have simply made medicaid an option for everyone who wanted health insurance, and put things such as tort reform, allow insurance to be purchased across state lines, bringing competition , which as we know would cause costs to go down but NO, they wanted a big government, intrusive law, and well, we have the cluster that it is.

[Tchocky]

Well that's as scientific as it gets, folks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Well that's as scientific as it gets, folks.

Yep, about the same amount of attention and business theory used to create a HC law that involved understanding the open markets concerning insurance companies that these Senators know little about.

Pelosi: "Pass Health Reform So You Can Find Out What’s In It" This is very scientific.

[Tchocky]

That's pithy but wrong.

There's plenty of understanding of how the individual health insurance market worked (or didn't work, to be more accurate).
Hence higher standards for plans, subsidies to help for higher quality (therefore higher cost) plans, and a mandate to ensure risk-pooling to keep the cost balance right and to ensure that the market, you know, functions as a service delivery mechanism.


But I'll admit there's nothing like facial expressions to appeal to people who already agree with you.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

That's pithy but wrong.

There's plenty of understanding of how the individual health insurance market worked (or didn't work, to be more accurate).
Hence higher standards for plans, subsidies to help for higher quality (therefore higher cost) plans, and a mandate to ensure risk-pooling to keep the cost balance right and to ensure that the market, you know, functions as a service delivery mechanism.


But I'll admit there's nothing like facial expressions to appeal to people who already agree with you.

Who understands it? If it was understood we would not be in this predicament. The insurance folks understood it. These folks advised DC what would occur. I find it hard to believe they stood quietly by. Wyoming Senator Enzi in 2010 understood it. He read the bill. The others have very little understanding or choice not to understand it once explained. Bill signed. I will not be convinced that those in DC have a true understanding of open market. It is not open. Each state has less than a handful to compare pricing. Each county in the state reduces that handful even more. True open market is having access to all including over state lines.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Hopefully, can keep this civil.This is a honest question, Obama's poll numbers have fallen to 38-39% or so, I wonder how can they be that high? I understand, some people just won't admit when they are wrong, will go down with a sinking ship, true believers etc. However, most in the 39% may have legitimate reasons for still supporting this man.I am curious as to how and why? Given all the scandals, dirt, etc and now the ultimate symbol of his incompetence, etc, obamacare, is a failure, as knew it would be since it was passed.I just want to know why someone honestly supports him still.

Hi level of scandals, dirt, incompetence is pretty much on par with the last two presidents, so what.